Internal engine question

[evil_dave]

After pulling the oil pan off my 06 R6 (with 1304 hard ridden miles) we found a thin metal shaving caught in the oil pick up tube filter. It appears to be be a thin strip of electroless nickel plating.

Does anyone know what internal parts of the motor have electroless nickel plating?

Any help would be appretiated.

She runs fine, I am just concerned.

Cheers.

[MotoWerx]

Sounds like a bearing to me... no fun! :headscratch:

[Jake952]

nickel plating? highly doubt it's a bearing, actually hard to believe there's any nickel inside the engine. Maybe it came off your shirt Dave, don't you work at a plating company ;). I'd forget about it myself, nothing else can you do. Even if it was ridden hard for 1000 miles w/o any service it should be OK.

[evil_dave]

nickel plating? highly doubt it's a bearing, actually hard to believe there's any nickel inside the engine. Maybe it came off your shirt Dave, don't you work at a plating company ;). I'd forget about it myself, nothing else can you do. Even if it was ridden hard for 1000 miles w/o any service it should be OK.

LOL, nah my buddy pulled it out of the screen.

Someone else said maybe it was just the foil seal from someone adding oil. Cheerful thinking but I doubt it. It really does look like a small section (about 1/8 inch by 3/4) of electroless nickel plating that peeled off and is kinda crumpled up.

Truth is I don't think I can really afford to worry about it. Just wondering where it came from and if I might be doing more harm by not fixing it...

[Steve]

:needpics1:

[kaneohekid]

:needpics1:



:threadjacked: what's with the WMRRA # ? in your sig :confused:

but to add to this thread, I've seen shavings on new motors first oil change, mostly in the magnetic drain plug part but never the screen, as long as it's not gold shavings I think your good???

[ricksr6]

Dave,

I wouldn't worry about it to much. Just change the oil regularely and make sure you don't pussy foot it around on the cool down lap. That is where I have seen most of the motors go bang.

[evil_dave]

:threadjacked: what's with the WMRRA # ? in your sig :confused:



He is coming out of retirement. :dancingchili:

[dinolee]

He is coming out of retirement. :dancingchili:
W00T! I knew he wouldn't retire. :banana:

BTW Dave, I'll give you a call later this afternoon.

-damon

[Steve]

I need a bike.

[Evans Tomassini]

Are you serious Steve?

[evil_dave]

WMRRA heart Steve. :D

[Bad Dog]

Need pics, it could be nothing or it could be a sign.

Don't those years have oil pump problems?

[Steve]

Are you serious Steve?

Yes. (Sorry to threadjack Dave but I don't really care.)

[evil_dave]

Pic as requested:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j79/r6kneedragger/IMG_3308.jpg

[Motophotog]

Pic as requested:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j79/r6kneedragger/IMG_3308.jpg

Dave thats just some foil from the candy bar you were eating when you did your first oil change!!! :rofl:

hope its nothin big! hope to see u out there in early may!!

[Rubber Ducky]

Uhm, I've had my engine apart many times but never seen anything resembling that kind of metal. Best bet is the give Dave Lanningan or Mike Castro a call or better swing by their shop and show them, they can probably tell you exactly whether or not you should worry about it. It does look like the tin foil on top of the oil can . . .

Are you going to be at the May weekend?

To continue the thread-jack, Steve are you in the market for a bike?

[evil_dave]

I have been working long hours on the conversion. I am trying my best to make it for the May 3 and 4 race weekend. I will bring my CSI crime lab evidence with me...



No worries on the thread jack...

evil_dave heart steve too (just don't tell anyone, I have my bad ass reputation to consider :lmao:)

[Bad Dog]

That looks like bearing material, I would honestly check your bearings. If it starts to knock, its too late and the damage is severe.

[MotoWerx]

Sounds like a bearing to me... no fun! :headscratch:

Looks like bearing material to me! :thumbsdown:

That looks like bearing material, I would honestly check your bearings. If it starts to knock, its too late and the damage is severe.

Unfortunately I agree. I hope for your sake its not, but that exactly what it looks like.

[piper907]

If I were you I would not run this motor ANY more. I am no engine builder but I am pretty sure that is a piece of a one of your bearings. If so, you are very close to doing damage to your crank. If you decide to run this motor (please don't) I would start looking for a new motor. If you take it to Dave, Fuzzy, or Eric BEFORE it blows, they should be able to reverse the damage at a minimal cost.

[evil_dave]

Ok, well I cut off a small corner and took it to our lab guys at work. They did some testing.

First, I can totally rule out electroless nickel. Yea I know what I said, but we submerged a small piece in pure nitric acid and there was zero effect. If it had been nickel it would have gassed and turned black.

Second we submerged a piece in an Acid Etch bath. If it had been aluminum it would have started gassing and dissolved.

Third we applied a chemical from a copper bath to tell if it was steel (and no it is not magnetic). Again no, it is not plain steel.

Finally, I have no idea what metal it is but we believe it to be tin foil or stainless steel.

I am feeling swayed back to the belief that it might just be part of the foil seal on a quart of oil. Keep in mind there were no other bits at all. And it is not zinc plating for sure because zinc does not peel in a sheet like that.

Next, tomorrow I am going to get a damaged bearing and perform the same tests...

[Bad Dog]

I don't believe its foil from an oil can.

Great idea on the tests but I am 100% certain thats bearing.

I've seen it 100's of times over the years. My last engine did that, smoked the crank, rod and filled the engine full of metal power, good times, :(

[Steve]

To continue the thread-jack, Steve are you in the market for a bike?

I think I have a deal sealed up on that 04 R6 on the bbs. But until I have it in my posssession, I am technically in the market still.

[pscook]

Ok, well I cut off a small corner and took it to our lab guys at work. They did some testing.

First, I can totally rule out electroless nickel. Yea I know what I said, but we submerged a small piece in pure nitric acid and there was zero effect. If it had been nickel it would have gassed and turned black.

Second we submerged a piece in an Acid Etch bath. If it had been aluminum it would have started gassing and dissolved.

Third we applied a chemical from a copper bath to tell if it was steel (and no it is not magnetic). Again no, it is not plain steel.

Finally, I have no idea what metal it is but we believe it to be tin foil or stainless steel.

I am feeling swayed back to the belief that it might just be part of the foil seal on a quart of oil. Keep in mind there were no other bits at all. And it is not zinc plating for sure because zinc does not peel in a sheet like that.

Next, tomorrow I am going to get a damaged bearing seal and perform the same tests...

Could it be chrome? I can't think of what is chromed inside of a modern engine, especially a piece that would be able to offer itself up like that, but it does look like a strip of delaminated chrome. Or maybe a piece of a stainless steel feeler gauge that was used during initial construction or a rebuild?

Do you have any oil left that you could send to someplace like Blackstone? They could tell you pretty definitvely what is giving itself up inside your engine.

[evil_dave]

Could it be chrome? I can't think of what is chromed inside of a modern engine, especially a piece that would be able to offer itself up like that, but it does look like a strip of delaminated chrome. Or maybe a piece of a stainless steel feeler gauge that was used during initial construction or a rebuild?

Do you have any oil left that you could send to someplace like Blackstone? They could tell you pretty definitvely what is giving itself up inside your engine.

Chrome is actually a super thin coating that lays on top of electroless nickel. So the tests we perfomed would have ruled that out. There is not any copper on the underside so it would be bare nickel.

A stainless steel feeler gauge was brought up, but they would normally be thicker than this. This is less than paper thin. Probably .001 thick.

And we threw out the oil. It was black, but I had just burn the clutch doing a small victory burn out, oops. :bigsmile: This bike was stunted a lot in it's short life. :mad: And it did have the original factory oil filter. So it missed the 600 mile oil filter change, maybe just the oil was changed. Maybe. (She has 1304 now.)

[ken]

:headscratch: definitely a head scratcher

[piper907]

I don't believe its foil from an oil can.

Great idea on the tests but I am 100% certain thats bearing.

My last engine did that, smoked the crank, rod and filled the engine full of metal power, good times, :(

Im with the DAWG... Have you done any tests to see if it is copper or has any copper content?
one more thing... If this bike has been stunted, it leads me to believe that one of your rod bearings could have lost pressure once or twice.
I would take your motor to a MOTOR EXPERT, (Dave Lannigan, Mike Castro, or Eric Dorn) have it torn down and the faulty bearing replaced BEFORE you ride it or you will be in the market for a new motor.

[ken]

NOO!? could it be... the precious unidentified metal at the Roswell site??
:bigsmile: I'm hoping on foil!!

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/secretevidence_roswell.jpg


First, I can totally rule out electroless nickel. Yea I know what I said, but we submerged a small piece in pure nitric acid and there was zero effect. If it had been nickel it would have gassed and turned black.

Second we submerged a piece in an Acid Etch bath. If it had been aluminum it would have started gassing and dissolved.

Third we applied a chemical from a copper bath to tell if it was steel (and no it is not magnetic). Again no, it is not plain steel.

Finally, I have no idea what metal it is but we believe it to be tin foil or stainless steel.

[Ken Holme]

I think due to shear stress, the thin hard coating delaminated on one of the cam lobe surfaces.
.
OR
.
The maximum Hertzian pressure interval is between 500 and 1600 MPa and the main axes of the contact ellipse are Dx = 200–800 μm in the rolling direction and Dy = 10–25 mm in the perpendicular direction. The studies also concluded that there is little slip, mainly because of the low moment of inertia. Thus, there is shear force between the camshaft and the valve tip, and the contact is loaded mainly in the normal direction. The surface measurements of the unworn valve contact revealed that they had a very strong texture with a main wavelength of 24 μm in the x-direction which is far smaller than the smallest contact width of 200 μm. The two surfaces are also flat, in the sense that the surface slope is small: ΔqRoller = 6° and ΔqCam = 1.5°. Consequently, a plane strain finite element model can be used to facilitate analysis of the effect of coating thickness (see Fig. 5). The load is applied as a Hertzian pressure according to Eq.....Hypothesis the rider of this motorbike holding the throttle WFO with shitting oil is going to have to deal with ESub = 210 GPa, νSub = 0.3; ECr = 279 GPa, νCr = 0.21.
Homie

[evil_dave]

... the thin hard coating ...

Which is what...?

I have already spent a day riding this bike, the day I bought it, while it was still street legal. She ran fine. Purrs like a kitten. A slutty kitten. With no panties. :shrug:

BTW, there is no copper. Yes we tested. This is not nickel, steel or aluminum.

[Ken Holme]

Which is what...?

I have already spent a day riding this bike, the day I bought it, while it was still street legal. She ran fine. Purrs like a kitten. A slutty kitten. With no panties. :shrug:

BTW, there is no copper. Yes we tested. This is not nickel, steel or aluminum.

I had some Web cams that flaked one time on a GSXR 1100. The flakes in my case were smaller then the piece of whatever you pictured.
BTW: Have you tried licking your wonder part?

[evil_dave]

... Have you tried licking your wonder part?

No. But your girlfriend has. :dancingchili:







Uh just kidding. Please don't beat me up next Saturday. :D

[Ken Holme]

But your girlfriend has.

Dude,,,,,,,,your part is too small....Now there's an intellectual component to the utility of mechanics....Ha Ha

[evil_dave]

Ha Ha

Thanks for the help. :nuts:



Meanwhile back at the ranch...

I will post up results of testing on bearings this afternoon.

[Buick_65]

apparently the foil seals on oil bottles have manganese (sp) in the aluminum alloy. Not sure if the addition of this element would "foil" your chemical test....

[Bad Dog]

But your girlfriend has.

Dude,,,,,,,,your part is too small....Now there's an intellectual component to the utility of mechanics....Ha Ha

Oh shit, that was funny, :lmao::rofl:

[pappawheelie]

Is it worth a $3000 gamble? Tear it down!