subframes..honestly?

[Ed Who?]

i know this was sore/heated subject in past..but i would like HONEST and WELL founded reasons we (clubs) do not allow aftermarket subframes? YES the wording would have to be to allow them so long as they replicated the oem mounting...ie did not change seating position and such...here is why i ask...again, NOT wanting controversy...wanting SOUND replies...my reasoning/support of them is TWO fold..

1. Cost. The oem ones are STUPID expensive.
2. Repair. you cant in most cases fix the cast oem ones. Our R6 superbike was crashed twice on the sebimoto alloy subframe and both times...a lil bit of tweaking and like new...try that with a stock one!


2006 600cc bikes STOCK OEM subframe $$
R6 $239
CBR6 $341
GXSR6 $682
ZX6 $618

The above is the advertised RETAIL pricing on a large online website.

R&R subframes
R6 $200
CBR $200
GSXR $200
ZX6 $200

Sebimoto Subframes
R6 $325
gsxr $290-375 (Depends on year)
cbr $325
zx6 $380


Thanks for input..im gonna push for something similar for OMRRA as well. HOnestly i dont see folks rushing to these...however play this scenerio out in your heads......

I got a 2007 GSXR600 with a PERFECT stock subframe....they are selling USED on ebay for $3-400!! I can buy myself a R&R one for $200...and put the extra cash into my racing fund!! and better yet..if i crash..i might actually be able to repair this one... HOW CAN A CLUB ARGUE AGAINST THAT?

[Mr Sunshine]

I believe Nico submitted a rule change for this last year. It was shot down.

The meeting notes are here. http://www.wmrra.com/minutes/2006/11_2006_rc.pdf

Item 27.

No notes on why it was shot down so we'll have to wait for a rule comittee member to find this thread and respond.

[Lynk]

Yikes! You just gave me something to be very grateful about - the price I paid for my recent subframe replacement. :hail:

:thumbsup: to your point. Frankly, even if the rules committee finds that balast is required to return the subframe to stock weight (which is the only reason I can come up with for a rejection), it sounds like a great option to me.

[jeff191]

Eric-

I'll tell you why I voted against aftermarket subframes...

I voted against them because I believe that we need to keep a distinction between supersport and superbike.

Remember, the intent of Supersport racing is to race bikes with the characteristics (good or bad) and qualities that the manufacturer built into the machines. If one manufacturer put a crappy, expensive, heavy subframe on the bike then that is one of the characteristics to consider when choosing what bike to buy for racing in Supersport. If one manufacturer puts in a slipper clutch, but another doesn't thats another thing to consider. Etc.

There is absolutely nothing stopping folks from racing in a Superbike class. They can run cheaper/better aftermarket subframes that way. They can also run a slipper clutch on a bike that didn't have one originally, they can run aftermarket engine internals which are likely stronger and probably even cheaper too.

Jeff Webber #191
Superbike / GP Rep

[Ed Who?]

point seen jeff, but i still think its stupid. there is NO gain in performance...ok, so lets say they are lighter...im willing to bet $$ that they are NOT lighter than 2lbs....hell if your worried about 2 lbs, take a poop.

also, why is it we allow aftermarket pipes that cost up over $2,000? why is it we allow aftermarket rearsets taht are lighter and adjust riding position? rearsets are crash repair items thats why...so should a subframe be.
why do we allow aftermarket clip ons that too are lighter, more adjustable and again change riding position? why? cause they are cheaper/easier to replace/fix in the event of a crash. why do we allow aftermarket bodywork? (yes oil retention is one) but it is MUCH MUCH lighter than stock, much more of an advantage from one brand to the other..but its cause you can REPAIR and keep racing... Subframes should be no different nowadays....How could a board member NOT see this?

Im gonna guess that there were not many SUPERSPORT riders on the rules commitee last year huh?

What about this...see what THE RACERS (ie members) WANT? Honestly, no drama..no bs. Hand out a flyer...cheaper yet. get someone to volunteer (i bet i could con one of the gua kids) to walk thru the pits with a clip board and piece of paper and just ask "would you support aftermarket subframes of similar design to be allowed in supersport to help reduce cost and also ease crash repair"

My money is the majority will FAVOR IT! I mean isnt this a Club of RACERS...isnt it what the RACERS want that is important>

Again just asking..so far VERY weak support for opposition....

[228antone]

gotta agree with the edr headhoncho even though it kills me to agree with anyone from oregon :razz: Im all about preventitive maintenance and saving some money, if I can save some coin after a crash and I have had a few my couple years of racing :crazy2: then lets get it on and do it, I highly doubt a pound or to is gonna give me an advantage in supersport when im a 200 pound guy anyways, and for the most part I dont believe racers would be purchasing the subframe to save weight but more thinking in the long run and saving some money later after a get off and able to straighten it back out instead of buying a oem sub for a mere 300 bones, so yeah good idea bro,, aight back to life in ellensburg yeehaaw, country boy out,, antone

[Hypnotiq]

Its getting proposed again this year with some better data. :)

[Mr Sunshine]

Its getting proposed again this year with some better data. :)

Would that be data from your first weekend tossing of your bike? :crazy2:

[piper907]

I am all for aftermarket subframes... one of the NESBA CR's took a tumble in Spokane last saturday in turn 4. He was running an "overthetop" subframe that is very similar to the ones Vesrah made for the 04-05 GSXRs. His bike was in pretty rough shape but the subframe was still intact and straight. By the looks of it, I really doubt if this thing was not HEAVIER than the stock unit. It bolted to the OEM mounting points and used the stock seat. I can think of no real race advantage that he would have gotten from this subframe other than a financial one.

I'll tell you why I voted against aftermarket subframes...

I voted against them because I believe that we need to keep a distinction between supersport and superbike.

I would like to see a distinction between the equipment racing in these classes as well. I think there are quite a few racers (including me) using their SS bikes to race in the SB classes. I think It would be really beneficial if it were possable to schedual SS races on one day and SB races on the next. The reason I say this is because in my situation, (and I am writing this because I don't think I am the only one) I race my stock GSXR 600 in 2 superbike classes and 2 supersport classes with barely enough time to swap to slicks sometimes. If the supersport and superbike races were ran on seperate days one could have the evening to set up a bike (even a supersport bike) that is a fair bit more competitive. Personally, I believe we would see a larger difference in the equipment that was being raced in these classes if a racer were to have the evening to... plug in the quickshifter, swap out stock seat for superbike tail, install velocity stacks and make fuelling changes, mount up the Brembo M/C and calipers, swap out stock wheels and DOT's with Mags, slicks and your choice of aftermarket rotors, and make the suspension changes needed for the transformed machine. Heck... you would have time to swap out the entire front end if one was so inclined.

I am not trying to threadjack or stir the pot, but I think there is a more effective way to diversify the machenery between the supersport and superbike classes than to restrict a crash item like a subframe.

how many WMRRA racers have a Supersport AND a seperate Superbike of the same displacement anyway? (I can think of three)

[Hypnotiq]

Thats actually a race day decision for Jeff Weind, Corson. I was planning on approaching him to have something done like this for next year. It would also allow I think for increased attendance on Saturdays.

[Mr Sunshine]

how many WMRRA racers have a Supersport AND a seperate Superbike of the same displacement anyway? (I can think of three)

I plan to next year....but that is because to transform a SV650 from a Supersport to a Superbike takes some serious time which I don't want to spent at the track doing (beyond the motor).

[Mr Sunshine]

It would also allow I think for increased attendance on Saturdays.

We need to be running polls to figure out what the public is coming to see to make any sort of measure if moving the schedule this way or that way will make a difference.

[piper907]

I am willing to bet more people show up to watch races than to watch racers practice.

[Mr Sunshine]

I am willing to bet more people show up to watch races than to watch racers practice.


I don't disagree with that assumption there. But which races is the question. The other question is are people going to be willing to show up both days to see supersport one day and superbike the next day?

anything else i was going to say would be a thread jack more than it is now. :lmao:

[redrider2]

I don't disagree with that assumption there. But which races is the question. The other question is are people going to be willing to show up both days to see supersport one day and superbike the next day?

anything else i was going to say would be a thread jack more than it is now. :lmao:

Try it for a weekend or two and find out. That will give you far more information than a poll with myriad variables and the typical 10% submission rate.

[Mr Sunshine]

Try it for a weekend or two and find out. That will give you far more information than a poll with myriad variables and the typical 10% submission rate.

I disagree. The weather has a huge factor on if people come or not so unless we can get 5 weekends with the same sunny weather you can't make the comparision with annodical data.

You actually have to ask people what they like. :lol: We could simply send some umbrella type women out into the paddock and have them do a poll...we'll get a really hi response rate. :rofl:

[dlippis]

i know this was sore/heated subject in past..but i would like HONEST and WELL founded reasons we (clubs) do not allow aftermarket subframes?

I agree with Eric. It could be argued that in the past an aftermarket subframe would have been a performance advantage because of weight, but the sportbikes of today almost all have lightweight subframes. How can an aftermarket subframe be a performance advantage anymore? We all understand and accept that racing is expensive and seems to be getting more so, but that doesn't mean we can't adjust the rules as bikes change in an attempt to keep our expenses down. To me, there's only ONE real distinction between a club level Supersport and Superbike...the MOTOR. All the other expensive things like brakes, wheels, subframes, etc. don't play that much of a role in club level competition...you still gotta ride the thing! Anyone that is able to squeak the extra half second from Superbike brakes and wheels will probably be jumping up to the AMA level anyway. I don't buy the argument that subframes are retaining the distinction between Supersport and Superbikes.

looking forward to seeing y'all in Spokanistan!

Danny

[jeff191]

Hey Dan, Eric-

While I don't disagree that there is no performance difference on most bikes. ... That isn't my reasoning for not allowing the aftermarket subframes.

(BTW - There is an exception... The SV has a very heavy subframe (steel) so you can lose a lot of weight with an aftermarket subframe)

I think many folks on the rules committee felt that the line between supersport and superbike has gotten too weak over the years. Each small decision which individually seems to make sense has caused us to creep down a road in which there is almost no difference between superbike and supersport.

Please tell me how many folks are actually running superbikes in the inline classes?

Last year in the rules committee there were proposals to allow backdating/updating in Supersport... The goal there was to allow folks to pick and choose the best parts from a manufacturer over a span of years and call that supersport... I opposed that as well. To me picking and choosing the best parts an installing them on your bike violates the principle of supersport racing... That is, the bikes are meant to represent the characteristics of the bikes as manufactured (with exceptions to make racing possible).

If a manufacturer puts crappy brakes on a bike one year, consider racing a different brand/model of bike or changing the bike to a superbike if you feel it needs different calipers.

Basically, the main reason for disallowing aftermarket subframes was because most folks on the committee felt that we should not blur the superbike/supersport lines any more than we already have....

Jeff Webber #191
Superbike / GP Rep

[dlippis]

[QUOTE=jeff191;21131]Hey Dan, Eric-

Please tell me how many folks are actually running superbikes in the inline classes?


Jeff, I understand your argument and you have some valid points. I believe the reason most folks don't run superbikes in the inline classes is because most of the contingency is in the Supersport classes. It doesn't pay to build a superbike unless you don't care about the contingency money.

[Bad Dog]

point seen jeff, but i still think its stupid. there is NO gain in performance...ok, so lets say they are lighter...im willing to bet $$ that they are NOT lighter than 2lbs....hell if your worried about 2 lbs, take a poop.

also, why is it we allow aftermarket pipes that cost up over $2,000? why is it we allow aftermarket rearsets taht are lighter and adjust riding position? rearsets are crash repair items thats why...so should a subframe be.
why do we allow aftermarket clip ons that too are lighter, more adjustable and again change riding position? why? cause they are cheaper/easier to replace/fix in the event of a crash. why do we allow aftermarket bodywork? (yes oil retention is one) but it is MUCH MUCH lighter than stock, much more of an advantage from one brand to the other..but its cause you can REPAIR and keep racing... Subframes should be no different nowadays....How could a board member NOT see this?

Im gonna guess that there were not many SUPERSPORT riders on the rules commitee last year huh?

What about this...see what THE RACERS (ie members) WANT? Honestly, no drama..no bs. Hand out a flyer...cheaper yet. get someone to volunteer (i bet i could con one of the gua kids) to walk thru the pits with a clip board and piece of paper and just ask "would you support aftermarket subframes of similar design to be allowed in supersport to help reduce cost and also ease crash repair"

My money is the majority will FAVOR IT! I mean isnt this a Club of RACERS...isnt it what the RACERS want that is important>

Again just asking..so far VERY weak support for opposition....

Can't say it much better than that.




I would like to see a distinction between the equipment racing in these classes as well. I think there are quite a few racers (including me) using their SS bikes to race in the SB classes. I think It would be really beneficial if it were possable to schedual SS races on one day and SB races on the next. The reason I say this is because in my situation, (and I am writing this because I don't think I am the only one) I race my stock GSXR 600 in 2 superbike classes and 2 supersport classes with barely enough time to swap to slicks sometimes. If the supersport and superbike races were ran on seperate days one could have the evening to set up a bike (even a supersport bike) that is a fair bit more competitive. Personally, I believe we would see a larger difference in the equipment that was being raced in these classes if a racer were to have the evening to... plug in the quickshifter, swap out stock seat for superbike tail, install velocity stacks and make fuelling changes, mount up the Brembo M/C and calipers, swap out stock wheels and DOT's with Mags, slicks and your choice of aftermarket rotors, and make the suspension changes needed for the transformed machine. Heck... you would have time to swap out the entire front end if one was so inclined.

I am not trying to threadjack or stir the pot, but I think there is a more effective way to diversify the machenery between the supersport and superbike classes than to restrict a crash item like a subframe.

how many WMRRA racers have a Supersport AND a seperate Superbike of the same displacement anyway? (I can think of three)

Why don't we eliminate DOT tires, AMA did it for saftey, the WMRC also allows slicks in all classes so why can't we? Slicks are allowed in every class and you choose either to run DOT's or Slicks???? This will also save racers money and the only weak response was I can't resell slicks?

[Darkside]

Let's just get ride of the superbike class all together..then there won't be a need to have a seperation we can have longer races as well or wait..maybe have qualifing? I would also venture to say that there are poeple that run superbike spec machines in supersport. Do they get protested probably not since unless you are a top 5 guy or maybe a top 10 is it worth the energy or effort to protest?

[Mr Sunshine]

Why don't we eliminate DOT tires, AMA did it for saftey

They did? I could have sworn to see DOT's in the Supersport class on TV. :headscratch:

[Mr Sunshine]

Let's just get ride of the superbike class all together..then there won't be a need to have a seperation we can have longer races as well or wait..maybe have qualifing? I would also venture to say that there are poeple that run superbike spec machines in supersport. Do they get protested probably not since unless you are a top 5 guy or maybe a top 10 is it worth the energy or effort to protest?

I was going to go the other way. Lets eliminate the supersport classes and reduce the amount of engine work you can do in the remaining "superbike" class.

Then lets have a 600 A and a 600 B, 750 A and 750 B classes where you run a qualifier to determine which one you are in (based on time not end placement). Only pay contingency on the A classes and go with that OR have one 600 and one 750 class which is 15-18 laps instead of 10 laps.



Or another idea is to bring the supersport classes back to earth. The only fork changes you can do is oil and springs. The only shock changes you can do is oil and spring. No valving changes allowed in supersport. No motor changes beyond maintance items (valve clearances, spark plug replacement (exact one must be used as new), OEM gaskets or exact replica's only, etc. Clutch plates and friction discs OEM. blah blah blah.

Basically buy the bike off the showroom floor, respring for your weight, throw some race plastic on it, wire, replace coolant with water, throw some DOT race tires and go. It won't be as cheap to race the bike as SuperBike but it puts "Super" back into "Superbike".

[piper907]

this seems to be getting out of hand a bit...
I have to agree with Eric and Dan that in most cases, an aftermarket subframe should be placed in the same category as replacement rearsets, clip-ons, and fairing steys...

[Mr Sunshine]

this seems to be getting out of hand a bit.
I have to agree with Eric and Dan that in most cases, an aftermarket subframe should be placed in the same category as replacement rearsets, clip-ons, and fairing steys...

...OR... just get rid of the Supersport classes!!! the AMA is doin' it!

There still is Superstock (600cc's).

[Bad Dog]

Let's just get ride of the superbike class all together..then there won't be a need to have a seperation we can have longer races as well or wait..maybe have qualifing? I would also venture to say that there are poeple that run superbike spec machines in supersport. Do they get protested probably not since unless you are a top 5 guy or maybe a top 10 is it worth the energy or effort to protest?

Yes to a point, honestly, how many real Superbikes are there running? I would venture to say, maybe 2?

They did? I could have sworn to see DOT's in the Supersport class on TV. :headscratch:

My bad, Superstock, 1000 cc Superstock uses slicks, 600's still use DOT's.

I was going to go the other way. Lets eliminate the supersport classes and reduce the amount of engine work you can do in the remaining "superbike" class.

Then lets have a 600 A and a 600 B, 750 A and 750 B classes where you run a qualifier to determine which one you are in (based on time not end placement). Only pay contingency on the A classes and go with that OR have one 600 and one 750 class which is 15-18 laps instead of 10 laps.



Or another idea is to bring the supersport classes back to earth. The only fork changes you can do is oil and springs. The only shock changes you can do is oil and spring. No valving changes allowed in supersport. No motor changes beyond maintance items (valve clearances, spark plug replacement (exact one must be used as new), OEM gaskets or exact replica's only, etc. Clutch plates and friction discs OEM. blah blah blah.

Basically buy the bike off the showroom floor, respring for your weight, throw some race plastic on it, wire, replace coolant with water, throw some DOT race tires and go. It won't be as cheap to race the bike as SuperBike but it puts "Super" back into "Superbike".

I don't agree with the suspension, most times, the stock stuff is junk. Engines, hard to police. Best of both worlds, run a "supersport" and then have a HP limited Superbike class, then you can do what you want but if you blow over on the dyno, your done.


There still is Superstock (600cc's).

See above, :clap:

[AndrewN]

also, why is it we allow aftermarket pipes that cost up over $2,000? why is it we allow aftermarket rearsets taht are lighter and adjust riding position? rearsets are crash repair items thats why...so should a subframe be.
why do we allow aftermarket clip ons that too are lighter, more adjustable and again change riding position? why? cause they are cheaper/easier to replace/fix in the event of a crash. why do we allow aftermarket bodywork? (yes oil retention is one) but it is MUCH MUCH lighter than stock, much more of an advantage from one brand to the other..but its cause you can REPAIR and keep racing... Subframes should be no different nowadays....How could a board member NOT see this? ....

dito - I think if the SB/SS rules are fuzzy, the subframe should not be ruled out of SS, if anything, an aftermarket exhaust is the biggest advantage with weight and performance. rehash on the clip-ons, rearsets, and body work... aftermarket subframe is easily lumped in with that group.

+1 on what Dan said - only BIG difference in SS and SB is the motor. for SB - dont' touch the intake, motor, brakes or rotors.. but a sub frame seems a bit ridiculous, considering what else can be modified without penalty.

talking about changing classes and reorginizing schedules is an entirely different topic - but I agree that there is hardly a difference between most SB and SS machines out on the grid. It does seem tempting to eliminate a class or two and use the time for other things, but it's hard to consider taking away one or the other either. SS class is cool, because it somewhat keeps things as a spec class that is more about racing and riding skill than, who can spend the most money and built the fastest machine. That said - SB is cool, because this is club level, and it is a hobby for a lot of folks, it's fun to build up a bike to see what it can do, and try new aftermarket parts, weather you need em or not.

anyway - +1 for aftermarket subframes. All considered, I think it's stupid to exclude them, and it seems it's just a political move based on principle rather than practicality. I for one would love to save the money.

[AndrewN]

Or another idea is to bring the supersport classes back to earth. The only fork changes you can do is oil and springs. The only shock changes you can do is oil and spring. No valving changes allowed in supersport. No motor changes beyond maintance items (valve clearances, spark plug replacement (exact one must be used as new), OEM gaskets or exact replica's only, etc. Clutch plates and friction discs OEM. blah blah blah.

Basically buy the bike off the showroom floor, respring for your weight, throw some race plastic on it, wire, replace coolant with water, throw some DOT race tires and go. It won't be as cheap to race the bike as SuperBike but it puts "Super" back into "Superbike".

I think if you brought supersport TOO far back to earth - no on would race in it. Everyone wants to put on aftermarket exhaust etc. I think there just needs to be a redefined list of "significant" performance improvement mods that are dissallowed for SS - the subframe not being one of them.

[Bad Dog]

I think if you brought supersport TOO far back to earth - no on would race in it. Everyone wants to put on aftermarket exhaust etc. I think there just needs to be a redefined list of "significant" performance improvement mods that are dissallowed for SS - the subframe not being one of them.


Not everyone, all over sound rules are starting to crop up due to the masses moving close to race tracks then complaining. This happened at Mission, we have to run stock mufflers, you can change the header but stock mufflers must be run. Guess what, the fastest guys are running stock systems, :wow::confused:

[The Squid]

this seems to be getting out of hand a bit...
I have to agree with Eric and Dan that in most cases, an aftermarket subframe should be placed in the same category as replacement rearsets, clip-ons, and fairing steys...


I agree also but perhaps have define rules for the after market subframes i.e. they must be the same or similar dimensions.

Would there be much gain from being able to tweak the aerodynamics of the tail? I just googled an r6 and the rear of the seat goes out to a vertical line down to the rear of the tire. Would it be less drag if it lined up with a vertical line through the rear axle like the gp bikes have it?

Other than that I don't see what can be gained other than ease of repair.



Then again mr. edr... you could save a whole bunch of money by not crashing...

[Bad Dog]

Then again mr. edr... you could save a whole bunch of money by not crashing...

If your not crashing, your not going fast enough and I dont' care how good you are, you will crash.

[The Squid]

If your not crashing, your not going fast enough and I dont' care how good you are, you will crash.


Point taken but if he's bitching about money maybe this isn't the sport for him. You can't compare the subframe to rearsets or clipons because those definitely aren't cheaper than stock ones. So I am assuming to save money he has oem clip ons and pegs?

[Bad Dog]

Point taken but if he's bitching about money maybe this isn't the sport for him. You can't compare the subframe to rearsets or clipons because those definitely aren't cheaper than stock ones. So I am assuming to save money he has oem clip ons and pegs?


We all know this sport isn't cheap but I guarantee you, I am probably the fastest, cheapest rider around, :bigok:
Anyhow, using aftermarket rear sets and clips is usually cheaper in the long run as if you crash, they can hold up better and you can buy just a foot peg or clip on tube. The subframe is in the same category, mine is bent and tweaked but I straightened it up and welded it for now but I need a new one but money is tight this year so over winter we'll see. We've seen the cost of OEM vs aftermarket, it just makes sense.

[Mr Sunshine]

My bad, Superstock, 1000 cc Superstock uses slicks, 600's still use DOT's.

(had to check the AMA rule book)

Supersport == 600cc == DOT's(dry) / Race Rains (wet)

Superstock == 1000cc == Any tire approved for racing by the manufactor

Interesting.

[Mr Sunshine]

I don't agree with the suspension, most times, the stock stuff is junk. Engines, hard to police. Best of both worlds, run a "supersport" and then have a HP limited Superbike class, then you can do what you want but if you blow over on the dyno, your done.

Its impossible to enforce the power output a bike makes on the dyno. There are too many ways to circumvent it and not be able to detect that method.

[Mr Sunshine]

SS class is cool, because it somewhat keeps things as a spec class that is more about racing and riding skill than, who can spend the most money and built the fastest machine.

There was a discussion awhile ago about a spec class. SS is *far* from a spec class.

[Mr Sunshine]

I agree also but perhaps have define rules for the after market subframes i.e. they must be the same or similar dimensions.

Would there be much gain from being able to tweak the aerodynamics of the tail? I just googled an r6 and the rear of the seat goes out to a vertical line down to the rear of the tire. Would it be less drag if it lined up with a vertical line through the rear axle like the gp bikes have it?

Other than that I don't see what can be gained other than ease of repair.



Then again mr. edr... you could save a whole bunch of money by not crashing...


Supposly if you take a hayabusa rear tail section and put it on a 1st gen SV you will get a couple more mph out of it down the front straight. yes people did this because the 1st gen SV didn't have "offical" aftermarket bodywork for a while when it first came out. So with the SV's for example if you are running bodywork offically for the SV or GSXR bodywork or something like it, you are ok because of the past history with that bike and bodywork.

[Mr Sunshine]

Point taken but if he's bitching about money maybe this isn't the sport for him. You can't compare the subframe to rearsets or clipons because those definitely aren't cheaper than stock ones. So I am assuming to save money he has oem clip ons and pegs?

Just for you Will but "Ed Who" is Eric Dorn of EDR in Portland. He's looking out for more than just his interest but all of the racers he sponsors and works with.

[Bad Dog]

Its impossible to enforce the power output a bike makes on the dyno. There are too many ways to circumvent it and not be able to detect that method.


Yes and no but for the most part, club racers don't have that kind of money to circumvent it. Its also blatantly obvious on the track, Lets say we have a 160 hp limit, you have one guy that consistantly keeps winning and dyno's at 159 and the runner up also around the same power but yet you can see racing the front guy is just pulling away on a the front straight, you know somethings up.

[motodave]

Wouldnt want to stir the pot any more but dont you think that any part of a motorcycle can be replaced w/ a lighter/heavier/stronger/weaker/less expensive/ more expensive/better availabilty/ less availability......
My point is when does the blend line between S.S. and super bike become not so obvious?:shrug:

[Bad Dog]

Wouldnt want to stir the pot any more but dont you think that any part of a motorcycle can be replaced w/ a lighter/heavier/stronger/weaker/less expensive/ more expensive/better availabilty/ less availability......
My point is when does the blend line between S.S. and super bike become not so obvious?:shrug:

My understanding of the rules is Superbike, anything goes, so bigger brakes, frame mods, custom swing arms, lighter wheels, engine mods out the ying yang.

I feel a subframe is not a performance mod as do others, its more of a crash item, like footpegs, clip ons. Your still retaining the same function, ala stock brakes, stock forks, stock engines, stock swingarms, supposedly stock engines, :confused: :rofl:

[justintime2]

I can attest to the fact that the sub-frame is a crash item, LOL! :rofl:
Seems like a no brainer to me...anyone of the "fast" guys would kick most of our asses on a completely stock bike vs our SS loaded variants and an aftermarket subframe won't even begin to change that. :shrug:

No measureable performance gain and it saves money, DO IT! :)

[Mr Sunshine]

My understanding of the rules is Superbike, anything goes, so bigger brakes, frame mods, custom swing arms, lighter wheels, engine mods out the ying yang.

I feel a subframe is not a performance mod as do others, its more of a crash item, like footpegs, clip ons. Your still retaining the same function, ala stock brakes, stock forks, stock engines, stock swingarms, supposedly stock engines, :confused: :rofl:

Anything goes is GP (which is why they are real race bikes :) ). Superbike is still based on a production bike and still requires that the parts used are available in the retail channels in some good level of quanity. Basically the idea is your competator could build exactly the same bike if they wanted to using the same parts you used.

[Bad Dog]

Anything goes is GP (which is why they are real race bikes :) ). Superbike is still based on a production bike and still requires that the parts used are available in the retail channels in some good level of quanity. Basically the idea is your competator could build exactly the same bike if they wanted to using the same parts you used.

Yes to a point, you can modify the stock bike at hearts content-IE change the front fork angle, weld on gussets, use Ohlins forks blah blah blah. I don't believe you need to use readliy available parts, you can make your own if you want.

[pappawheelie]

I think that aftermarket subframes should be allowed. I'm assuming those are retail prices.Last I checked the price of an aftermarket subframe really wasnt any better than oem for my r6(O4) though that may have changed. I think that most people arent going to buy one until they crash. In most cases, I dont think theres any real weight advantige, though there are a few. The SV would be a prime example.

I'm sure someone on the board with enough time will have access to the data to compare what bikes there would be a significant advantage.

[HALLASSTROM]

If we were to allow aftermarket we just blur the line to sbk more. It seems to me that it gets away from the heart of supersport racing. But we are so far from it at this point why not just lose ss all together? maybe I am repeating what others ahve said I have been kinda busy this week and haven't been able to read the whole thread

Brent

[Mr Sunshine]

Yes to a point, you can modify the stock bike at hearts content-IE change the front fork angle, weld on gussets, use Ohlins forks blah blah blah. I don't believe you need to use readliy available parts, you can make your own if you want.

My bad...I looked at the rules again instead of going off memory. :)

[The Squid]

Just for you Will but "Ed Who" is Eric Dorn of EDR in Portland. He's looking out for more than just his interest but all of the racers he sponsors and works with.

Thanks for setting my straight. I apologize to Ed Who for speaking out of my ass. I was out of line in that jeering comment and have no excuse for it. It makes sense and I was just trying to poke fun. A comment like that isn't me and I apologize for it.

[Bad Dog]

Thanks for setting my straight. I apologize to Ed Who for speaking out of my ass. I was out of line in that jeering comment and have no excuse for it. It makes sense and I was just trying to poke fun. A comment like that isn't me and I apologize for it.

Why apologize, Eric, errrrrrrr, Ed thrives on shit and abuse, :rofl:

[geddyt]

Hey Will, you might want to also look into your cost claims, too. You mention that it would save you money running OEM clip-ons and rearsets. This is far from true. Although the initial cost of aftermarket clip-ons and rearsets can be higher, they are generally modular and therefore much cheaper to repair. A set of new Woodcraft clip-ons is about $150, but replacement tubes are only $12. I'm looking on eBay and the first GSXR1000 clip-on that came up was $100 BIN for just one side. You can sometimes find them as "low" as ~$85 per side. I've crashed on aftermarket and stock clip-ons. Boy was it nicer replacing a $12 tube than replacing an $85 OEM clip-on. Rearsets are no different. Aftermarket rearsets cost a buttload, but they hold up well in a crash. I've got two sets of Satos. One went through a horrendous crash and needed nothing more than hammering the shift arm straight. The other set went through two low-sides in the same weekend with little more damage than a bit of grinding on one peg. And, again, replacement pegs for aftermarket rearsets are way cheaper than OEM. Woodcraft's replacement pegs are a whopping $25 and will survive a nuclear blast. On the flip side, my girlfriend dropped a bike with OEM rearsets at zero mph and it completely torqued the left footpeg into a corkscrew.

As for allowing aftermarket subframes in SS, what a non-issue. For the obvious reasons stated by about a dozen people on this thread (the most important being "I'd bet a vast majority of club members would want them"), it makes no sense to disallow aftermarket subframes. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of SS racers not in the top 5 are running aftermarket subframes, anyway, and just not saying anything about it.

[Ed Who?]

Point taken but if he's bitching about money maybe this isn't the sport for him. You can't compare the subframe to rearsets or clipons because those definitely aren't cheaper than stock ones. So I am assuming to save money he has oem clip ons and pegs?

ROFL...yeah....might not be my "sport" haha... obviously you have never seen my "own" superbike i build for the shop....this years is a 2007 R6 with over $30,000 into it so far....

and yes. a/m subframe.

[Ed Who?]

If we were to allow aftermarket we just blur the line to sbk more. It seems to me that it gets away from the heart of supersport racing. But we are so far from it at this point why not just lose ss all together? maybe I am repeating what others ahve said I have been kinda busy this week and haven't been able to read the whole thread

Brent


bullshxt!

Lets see folks....here is what "usually" gets damaged in a crash (i know cause i fix them all the damn time!)

-Bodywork (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Clip ons (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Footpeg/rearset (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Fairing stay (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Levers (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Windscreens (we ALLOW A/Mkt stuff)
-Subframe (Opps..your fxxxked....open that wallet)

SEE THE PATTERN RULES COMMITEE?? SHOW ME THE PROBLEM????

LIke i said, i KNOW the SV is a HUGE gain due to steel and a/mkt ones are alloy...i fixed that problem by stating the rule should not allow a MATERIAL change from oem!

[Ed Who?]

Thanks for setting my straight. I apologize to Ed Who for speaking out of my ass. I was out of line in that jeering comment and have no excuse for it. It makes sense and I was just trying to poke fun. A comment like that isn't me and I apologize for it.


dude, no worries. i aint gonna open a can of worms and expect all to cuddle with me and my WELL FOUNDED opinions...its all good :beerchug:

[The Squid]

ROFL...yeah....might not be my "sport" haha... obviously you have never seen my "own" superbike i build for the shop....this years is a 2007 R6 with over $30,000 into it so far....

and yes. a/m subframe.

No I have not, I would love to check it out sometime though. 30k? Damn dude.

[The Squid]

dude, no worries. i aint gonna open a can of worms and expect all to cuddle with me and my WELL FOUNDED opinions...its all good :beerchug:

Haha well good because I'm not going to cuddle with you ;)

[tophyr]

Haha well good because I'm not going to cuddle with you ;)

So he says...

FTR, I'm completely for allowing aftermarket subframes.

[341]

I was just looking throught the '07 AMA Supersport/stock rules and it doesn't include the rear subframe in the list of parts that can be changed. Just an FYI. Troy341

Section 3.2 Modifications from OEM

a. Only the modifications listed in this section are permitted.
b. No other changes from showroom stock will be allowed.
c. All parts, except as noted, must remain as originally produced by the
motorcycle manufacturer at the time of sale to its dealer network.

3.3 Updating or Backdating
Absolutely no updating or backdating of parts will be allowed unless
specified by the rules. Superseded parts must be submitted to AMA Pro
Racing for review and approval before use on applicable models in
competition. In addition, these parts must be listed in the current OEM
parts list as supplied to AMA Pro Racing. The Approved Equipment List
is available from the AMA Pro Racing office.

3.23 Items that may be removed
Disconnecting any wires belonging to the component may only be done
at the closest connector to the component, not by cutting any wires:
a. Lights and reflectors.
b. Instruments, instrument brackets, and associated cables
c. Radiator fan and wiring.
d. License bracket
e. Passenger footrests and mounting brackets
f. Passenger grab rails
g. Chain guards
h. Rear fender or rear section of rear fender may be removed as long as
there is tail/seat bodywork covering the top of the rear wheel. Front
fender may be spaced upward for tire clearance.
i. Cooling system thermostat

3.24 Items that may be replaced
The following items may be replaced by aftermarket parts except as
noted:
a. Control cables
b. Handlebar control switches and instrument brackets
c. Oil, oil filter, lubricants and fluids
d. Final drive sprockets and chains. Chain size may be changed.
e. Rear shock (linkage must remain stock)
f. Fire-retardant foam may be installed in fuel tanks.
g. Standard fasteners may be replaced with aftermarket fasteners of the
same material and design. Fasteners may be drilled for safety wire but
intentional weight-saving modifications are not permitted.
Fairing/bodywork fasteners may be changed to quick-disconnect type.

[geddyt]

AMA Supersport/Superstock doesn't allow exhaust and PCIII? Was that a complete list of allowed modifications?

[341]

That wasn't a complete list. Here's the link. http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/RR%202007%20Final.pdf
If I missed it, please point it out to me, obviously I could have. Troy341

[Bad Dog]

Last time I checked, we weren't AMA, :headscratch: :thumbsup:

[341]

No shit? Wow.

Eric has used the "...but the ama rules are...." arguement before, so I thought that I'd see what their position on the subject was.
Troy341

[Seehorn]

Last time I checked, we weren't AMA, :headscratch: :thumbsup:

We should use AMA rules since our top 5-10 guys all ride AMA events and it would be way easier to set up our bikes, like power shifters for example and number plate configurations. Other BS also.

[Moto]

i know this was sore/heated subject in past..but i would like HONEST and WELL founded reasons we (clubs) do not allow aftermarket subframes? YES the wording would have to be to allow them so long as they replicated the oem mounting...ie did not change seating position and such...here is why i ask...again, NOT wanting controversy...wanting SOUND replies...my reasoning/support of them is TWO fold..

1. Cost. The oem ones are STUPID expensive.
2. Repair. you cant in most cases fix the cast oem ones. Our R6 superbike was crashed twice on the sebimoto alloy subframe and both times...a lil bit of tweaking and like new...try that with a stock one!


2006 600cc bikes STOCK OEM subframe $$
R6 $239
CBR6 $341
GXSR6 $682
ZX6 $618

The above is the advertised RETAIL pricing on a large online website.

R&R subframes
R6 $200
CBR $200
GSXR $200
ZX6 $200

Sebimoto Subframes
R6 $325
gsxr $290-375 (Depends on year)
cbr $325
zx6 $380


Thanks for input..im gonna push for something similar for OMRRA as well. HOnestly i dont see folks rushing to these...however play this scenerio out in your heads......

I got a 2007 GSXR600 with a PERFECT stock subframe....they are selling USED on ebay for $3-400!! I can buy myself a R&R one for $200...and put the extra cash into my racing fund!! and better yet..if i crash..i might actually be able to repair this one... HOW CAN A CLUB ARGUE AGAINST THAT?

Eric-

I'll tell you why I voted against aftermarket subframes...

I voted against them because I believe that we need to keep a distinction between supersport and superbike.

Remember, the intent of Supersport racing is to race bikes with the characteristics (good or bad) and qualities that the manufacturer built into the machines. If one manufacturer put a crappy, expensive, heavy subframe on the bike then that is one of the characteristics to consider when choosing what bike to buy for racing in Supersport. If one manufacturer puts in a slipper clutch, but another doesn't thats another thing to consider. Etc.

There is absolutely nothing stopping folks from racing in a Superbike class. They can run cheaper/better aftermarket subframes that way. They can also run a slipper clutch on a bike that didn't have one originally, they can run aftermarket engine internals which are likely stronger and probably even cheaper too.

Jeff Webber #191
Superbike / GP Rep

point seen jeff, but i still think its stupid. there is NO gain in performance...ok, so lets say they are lighter...im willing to bet $$ that they are NOT lighter than 2lbs....hell if your worried about 2 lbs, take a poop.

also, why is it we allow aftermarket pipes that cost up over $2,000? why is it we allow aftermarket rearsets taht are lighter and adjust riding position? rearsets are crash repair items thats why...so should a subframe be.
why do we allow aftermarket clip ons that too are lighter, more adjustable and again change riding position? why? cause they are cheaper/easier to replace/fix in the event of a crash. why do we allow aftermarket bodywork? (yes oil retention is one) but it is MUCH MUCH lighter than stock, much more of an advantage from one brand to the other..but its cause you can REPAIR and keep racing... Subframes should be no different nowadays....How could a board member NOT see this?

Im gonna guess that there were not many SUPERSPORT riders on the rules commitee last year huh?

What about this...see what THE RACERS (ie members) WANT? Honestly, no drama..no bs. Hand out a flyer...cheaper yet. get someone to volunteer (i bet i could con one of the gua kids) to walk thru the pits with a clip board and piece of paper and just ask "would you support aftermarket subframes of similar design to be allowed in supersport to help reduce cost and also ease crash repair"

My money is the majority will FAVOR IT! I mean isnt this a Club of RACERS...isnt it what the RACERS want that is important>

Again just asking..so far VERY weak support for opposition....

I think both of you have some pretty good points.

One of the reasons that I prepare the bike the way that I do, use the parts that I use, don't use paticular parts etc is so that I can run SSTK and SBK.

Now...the AMA is tossing SSTK. So, why not follow suit and only have a SBK class for the big bikes but run a double header?

[Moto]

I agree with Eric. It could be argued that in the past an aftermarket subframe would have been a performance advantage because of weight, but the sportbikes of today almost all have lightweight subframes. How can an aftermarket subframe be a performance advantage anymore? We all understand and accept that racing is expensive and seems to be getting more so, but that doesn't mean we can't adjust the rules as bikes change in an attempt to keep our expenses down. To me, there's only ONE real distinction between a club level Supersport and Superbike...the MOTOR. All the other expensive things like brakes, wheels, subframes, etc. don't play that much of a role in club level competition...you still gotta ride the thing! Anyone that is able to squeak the extra half second from Superbike brakes and wheels will probably be jumping up to the AMA level anyway. I don't buy the argument that subframes are retaining the distinction between Supersport and Superbikes.

looking forward to seeing y'all in Spokanistan!

Danny

OK, but what happens when you go to another association that you race with? You've got to have another subframe. Then again, if you bought the bike new you've probably got the OEM subframe so it's not too big of a deal.

Just a thought...

[piper907]

That's what I was thinking...
What other ORGs allow aftermarket subframes in there SS classes?
OMRRA, WERA, etc. ???
There are some definate advantages to buying an aftermarket subframe... but having to change it out (back to stock) to race elsewhere is a dis-advantage 4 sure!

[Hypnotiq]

Umm, they are legal for SS now Corson. :)

As long as the aftermarket subframe uses the same material as the OEM one as to not give a performance enhancement.

[piper907]

Legal for WMRRA.... but where else?

[Hypnotiq]

OMRRA. I think WERA as well.

Its considered a crash part. No different than clipons or rearsets.

[Ex Presidente]

You could always use the Stock Sub Frame so you don't have to change it out too!

:)

Luke

[piper907]

that is why I asked.

[Will]

If an aftermarket subframe is legal, it doesn't make the OEM subframe illegal, does it? If you race in organizations requiring the OEM subframe, but WMRRA allows aftermarket subframes, I don't understand why there would be an issue, especially if an aftermarket subframe gives no competitive advantage.

[tophyr]

Corson's concern was that if he crashes and breaks his OEM subframe, and replaces it with an aftermarket one, then wants to go race in another organization that doesn't allow aftermarket ones, he'll have to buy a stock one anyway.

[Hypnotiq]

Its his choice on what he wants to buy. He just isnt REQUIRED to run an OEM one with WMRRA as long as it is of the same material as the OEM one.

This makes it cheaper for racers.

Im actually shocked at the outcry over this considering you have a "choice" now whereas you didnt before.

[tophyr]

Its his choice on what he wants to buy. He just isnt REQUIRED to run an OEM one with WMRRA as long as it is of the same material as the OEM one.

This makes it cheaper for racers.

Im actually shocked at the outcry over this considering you have a "choice" now whereas you didnt before.

Well, in Corson's case I think it was just a clarification.. the way I read it, he wanted to make sure that both A/M and OEM were legal.

[piper907]

I am well aware of the WMRRA rule changes that occured this year...
I am considering purchasing an aftermarket subframe for a spare... But, in WERAs rulebook they do NOT allow AM subframes... OMRRA does, (thanks Nico).
It was a question to clarify any issues I may run into racing with other clubs and help me decide wether or not to install an aftermarket subframe on my bike.
Thanks.

[Bad Dog]

Thats awesome, glad they added the rule.

Some people will bitch about anything, sheesh, :bash: