600 and 750 Starts

[XB9Racer]

Greetings All-

I want to thank all the volunteers, race day staff and especially the racers, for working together to get through this last week-end's racing. From track conditions to all too numerous red flags to Sunday's Exxon Valdez Incident, our preserverance won out. Thanks again, you really do make my job a little easier and are a pleasure to work with. I couldn't do it without each a every one of you.:D

I will be presenting a new grid procedure to the E-Board at Wednesday's meeting for the 600 and 750 classes due to their size and the incidents that have become all too frequent at both Seattle and Spokane.I consider this my #1 PRIORITY at this time.

Plan on Changes for the next round in Spokane.

THIS YOU HAVE MY WORD ON.

On a side note- If you or anyone you know has suggestions/comments/concerns/ideas please feel free to contact me anytime by any means. I am always willing to listen....I'd prefer talking(duh) over e-mails, but it's all good.:)

...and remember, you can be part of the problem, add to the problem or solve the problem. Only you can decide.

See Ya' in Spokane if I don't see ya' at the GM meeting.
Drive safe.

[John Lippis]

Jeff;
What was the discussion and opinion of the board on changing starting procedures for 600 & 750 classes?

I think that besides the large class size, the notion or reputation that the 600 class (which carries into the 750’s) is a "wild", "crazy" or "insane" class is also part of the problem, and this idea should be strongly resisted by the club. If not, then amend the rulebook and designate one or more classes as “Gladiator” or “Insane” classes (using a GA or IA suffix - the A can be assumed) for those who don’t mind taking risks with the safety of others, and in turn don’t mind being put at risk by other overly-aggressive riders.

Otherwise, overcrowded classes with a wide disparity of skill levels should have WAVE starts and Starting Grids sorted by LAP TIMES, as well as putting more teeth into measures to enhance Rider Accountability.

At our Club Level of Racing, if this sport is to grow positively, riders of varying skill levels have a reasonable expectation that our purpose is to compete as safely as possible.

We put ourselves at risk from our own mistakes and from the mistakes of others when we sign the form, but we should not be giving up our expectations that the club is doing all that it can to put safety first-most for all.

Acceding to the idea that by entering a certain class is akin to signing up as ‘fair game’ for someone with a handful of horsepower and an ego bent on warrior-hood-or-beat-the-next-guy-at-any-cost, we will always distort the true essence and value of this sport.

If the club legitimizes the idea that we are here for the adrenalin only, or bragging rights to the extreme risk, then the new 600-750GA class should increase attendance by drawing a new type of spectator, and give these particular riders all the rush and recognition that they need.
Respects to all the club members :-)
John Lippis

[RickRinaldo123]

Otherwise, overcrowded classes with a wide disparity of skill levels should have WAVE starts and Starting Grids sorted by LAP TIMES, as well as putting more teeth into measures to enhance Rider Accountability.


I like that idea. I signed up for 600SB (the first time for me in that class, ever) and was trying to figure out how I am gonna make it through crowd in T1, T2 and T3 to be riding with folks of my similar speed. Hopefully, some changes will happen for the next races.

Rick...

[Mr Sunshine]

I was thinking wave starts would be a good idea...but all it means is the leaders will lap people that much sooner. It fixes the start but doesn't manage the problem of 50+ riders on a 2mile track at the same time.

Thus the idea of splitting the class and requiring qualifing to figure out which group you go into comes to mind.

[RickRinaldo123]

I was thinking wave starts would be a good idea...but all it means is the leaders will lap people that much sooner.

I agree, but I think it is safer lapping a few more people (mid to the end of the race) at any corner of the track vs. the large number of people going through (T1 and T2) the fastest corners. Also, when you are lapping someone, you have a lot more time to calculate speed differential and passing spot to safely pass.

Couldn't we set-up an A and B group and grid/score as classes like Formula Thunder and TFS?

I am sure Jeff has thought of something better that will logistically work, so, I look forward to what he also has to say.

Rick...

[thom2002]

qualifying would be really cool but i don't know how the heck we could work that into an already crammed schedule

[Allister Squid #121]

I have raced with larger grids at other clubs.

At Infineon last year with AFM I was on the track with 74 riders.

(for those that do not know, Infineon is a much more technical track than Pacific, which is a pretty technical track on its own)

Of course safety is priority.

[Rated R]

Thus the idea of splitting the class and requiring qualifing to figure out which group you go into comes to mind.

The weekend schedules are already so busy, when would there be time for qualifying? Would you propose sacraficing practice time, or changing the length of races in order to accomidate qualifying sessions?

[Allister Squid #121]

What AFM does is limits classes to the actual size of bike.

No 600's in 750 classes.

No 750's in 1000 classes etc...

[Darkside]

What AFM does is limits classes to the actual size of bike.

No 600's in 750 classes.

No 750's in 1000 classes etc...

hey that might save me on my race entry fees.....now theres a novel idea...not spend so much on race weekends.

[kaneohekid]

I was thinking the same thing :D It would be nice but the 600 classes would still be huge. Qualifying would be nice, but it's true that I don't think it's possible to fit it in to the race weekends schedule (my 2 cents)

[Hypnotiq]

What AFM does is limits classes to the actual size of bike.

No 600's in 750 classes.

No 750's in 1000 classes etc...

AFM has a bigger pool of racers to pull from so they have the luxury of making this distinction.

[diliracer]

Problem: Safety of riders participating in 750 and 600 classes due to number of riders.
Suggestion: Use the "Fast" practice session once a month as the qualifying practice for the faster people. Limit the riders in the 750 and 600 Superbike fields by allowing only those who "qualify" in the fast practice session. Maybe put a high limit on the lap times of X:XX? I don't know what this would be but I would bet there are other clubs in the nation who have similar problems and solutions. Just a suggestion.

Side Note:
I am currently researching how other clubs in the nation treat novices because I am not a fan of the current format (no checkered flag and no placings). I plan on obtaining as much information as possible regarding facts from other clubs and then making suggestions through the proper channels.

[Steve]

hey that might save me on my race entry fees.....now theres a novel idea...not spend so much on race weekends.

You know Mike...you don't HAVE to enter the 750 classes...:D

[thom2002]

lots of orgs have a novice championship format...i think WERA and CCS both do it like that. And I think they just race witht he rest of the groups...but i could be wrong on that one

[Mr Sunshine]

The weekend schedules are already so busy, when would there be time for qualifying? Would you propose sacraficing practice time, or changing the length of races in order to accomidate qualifying sessions?

nope...do like the big boys do. use one of the practice session times as your qualifying time. :) second practice or third practice of the day.

another idea but is very radical is to eliminate practice on sat and sun. Well there would be a practice but it would be a single "warm up" session. Then you have time for qualifying heats. This is very much like how I see OMRRA's schedule done (I haven't run OMRRA though).

Track time isn't hard to get anymore...so I don't feel WMRRA needs to be in the business of providing "track time". They need to be in the business of running a race schedule and if it cuts into track time to make it a safer yet still competitive schedule then I'm all for it.

It would require that a track day is always available the day before though.

[Mr Sunshine]

Side Note:
I am currently researching how other clubs in the nation treat novices because I am not a fan of the current format (no checkered flag and no placings). I plan on obtaining as much information as possible regarding facts from other clubs and then making suggestions through the proper channels.

Would you please also post up what you find in another thread in the club talk section when you have everything summed up? I'm interested in this information to and it tends to get watered down, missing information when it goes through several people.

thanks.

[Hypnotiq]

another idea but is very radical is to eliminate practice on sat and sun. Well there would be a practice but it would be a single "warm up" session. Then you have time for qualifying heats. This is very much like how I see OMRRA's schedule done (I haven't run OMRRA though).

This is not exactly how OMRRA does it.

Saturday - OMRRA practice day/Novice races (barring endurance weekend)
Sunday - OMRRA qualifiers and races

[Mr Sunshine]

This is not exactly how OMRRA does it.

Saturday - OMRRA practice day/Novice races (barring endurance weekend)
Sunday - OMRRA qualifiers and races

Ah yes...sorry my bad. So does OMRRA just have less classes and that's how they get all of the racing done in a day?

[diliracer]

Would you please also post up what you find in another thread in the club talk section when you have everything summed up? I'm interested in this information to and it tends to get watered down, missing information when it goes through several people.

thanks.

Will do. Although with as much travel as I do for work this may take me some time. It may also involve contacting some reps from other clubs because I am finding that their current rule books don't include all the details.

[dlippis]

Ah yes...sorry my bad. So does OMRRA just have less classes and that's how they get all of the racing done in a day?

OMRRA runs 4 lap qualifiers Sunday morning to determine your grid position for the afternoon 10 lap main. Your finish position (not lap time) for the qualifier determines your grid position in the main. Season points determine your grid position for the qualifier. They run darn near as many classes I think. It's a long day at OMRRA with many tire changes and bustin' your arss.

OMRRA considered and voted on timed qualifying for this year, but it was shot down...mostly because this year's schedule was condensed into five events for track improvements. I think the idea of timed qualifying was relatively well received there, and they might take another look at it for next season.

I think timed qualifying for a select few classes would be an interesting idea for WMRRA, but the logistics are difficult and would further tax our race day staff...easy for us racers to demand when they're doing all the work!

I like the idea of using practice times to determine which wave 600 & 750 riders would start in. This seems the most equitable way to split the grid and help alleviate the T1 and T2 congestion.

[Moto]

I have raced with larger grids at other clubs.

At Infineon last year with AFM I was on the track with 74 riders.

(for those that do not know, Infineon is a much more technical track than Pacific, which is a pretty technical track on its own)

Of course safety is priority.

yeah, i was just talking with someone the other day who got back from an AFM event at Infineon. 74 bikes in one wave for the 600 SS race. have fun in the esses with that - never mind the final hairpin...

[Lynk]

I think timed qualifying for a select few classes would be an interesting idea for WMRRA, but the logistics are difficult and would further tax our race day staff...easy for us racers to demand when they're doing all the work!

The logistics wouldn't have to be difficult, Danny! It would be an afternoon's work to make a small script to compare best laps from morning practice sessions. If you don't make at least one practice session, on the day of a race, you get gridded at the back. :eek:

As long as the timing system can reliably spit out plain-text lap-time files, the data is easily retrieved.

[dlippis]

The logistics wouldn't have to be difficult, Danny! It would be an afternoon's work to make a small script to compare best laps from morning practice sessions. If you don't make at least one practice session, on the day of a race, you get gridded at the back. :eek:

As long as the timing system can reliably spit out plain-text lap-time files, the data is easily retrieved.

Maybe you're right!

However, one problem I see with using morning practice sessions for qualifying is, it's usually cold, tires are cold, suspension fluid is cold...we'd end up with people riding hard and trying to put in a good lap time for qualifying under these conditions...not safe in my opinion. Most race organizations run qualifying at the middle or end of the day for this reason...not to mention getting your bike setup.

On the flip side, timed qualifying is exciting and adds a whole new element of competition.

[John Lippis]

It would be relatively simple to use the lap times from the last race- and for those who didn't have them, to use their best practice time that day. Everyone has to use a transponder anyway, so the information is available. this will give a reasonable sort of the grid.

[Mr Sunshine]

It would be relatively simple to use the lap times from the last race- and for those who didn't have them, to use their best practice time that day. Everyone has to use a transponder anyway, so the information is available. this will give a reasonable sort of the grid.

I think that is prolly the best idea right there and it doesn't affect the schedule.

But what if you DNF the previous weekend? To the back of the grid for you in the "second wave"? It would make not crashing even more important wouldn't it? :D

[taylspin]

Instead of doing a wave start, just spread out the grid a little more. Omrra did this a few years ago to relieve the congestion going into T1. Cut one bike off of each row, and or stagger the rows more.

If you want to ride up a class (600 in 750) then since there is no timing, base it on finishing place in the lower class from the previous race standings, take as many as needed to fill the grid, just work from top to bottom. Anyone who wants to ride up, mark the entry sheet someway and then you will find out if you can once you get to the track, for those who don't get their money back. Make a once a season exemption for say the top 15 in case of a dnf one weekend.

[Mr Sunshine]

Instead of doing a wave start, just spread out the grid a little more. Omrra did this a few years ago to relieve the congestion going into T1. Cut one bike off of each row, and or stagger the rows more.


This helps only the start but the problem is more than just the start.


If you want to ride up a class (600 in 750) then since there is no timing, base it on finishing place in the lower class from the previous race standings, take as many as needed to fill the grid, just work from top to bottom. Anyone who wants to ride up, mark the entry sheet someway and then you will find out if you can once you get to the track, for those who don't get their money back. Make a once a season exemption for say the top 15 in case of a dnf one weekend.

This idea won't work as it is an administration nightmare.

[tophyr]

I like John's take-your-best-time-and-that's-you're-qualifier idea.

Re: the crammed schedule though, I've wondered this for a while now - why do we end at 4pm? Barring drags, which to my knowledge (and so far limited experience) don't run on Sundays, we could run races 'til 7pm all summer and not have to worry a bit about daylight. Right now we could go till nine :P

[Mr Sunshine]

I like John's take-your-best-time-and-that's-you're-qualifier idea.

Re: the crammed schedule though, I've wondered this for a while now - why do we end at 4pm? Barring drags, which to my knowledge (and so far limited experience) don't run on Sundays, we could run races 'til 7pm all summer and not have to worry a bit about daylight. Right now we could go till nine :P


I know on Sunday's there is a ordinance that restricts our time. This past weekend the track picked up the bill for any fines due to us loosing so much time in the morning due to the drag racers no cleaning up after themselves.

[Hypnotiq]

Allow me to interject some comments.

#1 - I've already written the rule change proposal to change the way we grid people for the first event of the season. I need to make a couple more tweaks but I think it will sufficently address the issue. When the window opens to submit change proposals, I'll be submitting this one.

#2 - What we saw the 2nd race weekend is a bit atypical. We had a really bad first race weekend where it rained pretty hard and a lot of the fast guys either 1) didn't race or 2) didn't finish their race. Because of this situation, you ended up with guy that are typically Top 5 or Top 10 starting anywheres from row 5 - row 9 or 10. Med-Fast guys like me, who did fairly well in the rain, end up on the front row of the grid with all those guys behind me. Which is exactly why I moved myself to the back of the grid in Form Ultra last weekend. :)

Because of the above, the rule change I submit may need to be amended/catered to handle up to the 2nd event, for when situations like this year happen, happen. In all honesty though, in MOST cases, things will shake out after the 1st 2 races and it becomes a non issue IMHO

Something else to mention. I think we already have a pretty packed race day and to add on qualifiers would be a bit too much. If you talk to the guys that race OMRRA, it makes for a very packed, hectic day and they don't really get to relax. By the end of the day, they just want to leave the track. Having done both, I think the atmosphere we have up here is MUCH better. An alternative would be practice times on Saturday would dictate grids on Sunday, however, I think you just trade one problem for another.

[tophyr]

Ah, that's probably why the drags don't run.

[piper907]

just GO!!! as fast as you can....


















...and if your a$$ hole puckers up a little bit... just remember...
YOU ARE RACING A FRICKIN MOTORCYCLE!!!!!:rolleyes:

[Moto]

just GO!!!

i like that. i tell people racing bikes is really a simple thing.

just, GO. MORE. FASTER.

:D

[XB9Racer]

Starting at the third round of the 2007 season at Spokane on May 26th-27th we will be implementing the following:

Any 600 or 750 SBK/SS race that fields 40+ riders will be started in a wave fashion.
The first half of the field according to grid positions in the first wave. The remainder of the field will be in the second wave according to grid position.

This should hopefully help with the large packs entering T1 and T2 and sometimes overly aggressive moves made by mid to back of pack racers trying to get the holeshot and win the race in the second turn.
(as if):bash:

On the flip-side...it does mean that the faster riders wil be catching up to and passing slower riders sooner. I'd rather have to deal with passing slower riders sooner (or getting passed sooner) than having another 15-20 racers to deal with in T1 or T2 at the start. No?

Last race we spread out the grid rows by 6 feet and still had some very close calls.:eek:

Remember...Starts are the HARDEST and MOST DANGEROUS part of racing.

Just getting through one lap can make all the difference in the world.

Watch Mike Sullivan. He rarely gets the holeshot, but by the third or fourth lap, he is at the front. I've seen him as far back as mid-pack and still be at the front by the end. "Sure, it's Sully we're talkin' about"...yes, but the same can be said about the other fast riders in our club. FAST is FAST is FAST. If you are truly fast...you will be at the front sooner or later.

If it was up to me, I'd take later. 'Cause that's when the checkered flag comes out.

See ya' in Spokane.

Race SAFE. Have FUN.

Questions, comments or concerns can be directed to me anytime....

[Rated R]

Jeff, can you tell us what the interval of time will be between the two waves?

[Mr Sunshine]

Jeff, can you tell us what the interval of time will be between the two waves?

I would expect 20 - 30 seconds but I don't know for sure.

I think this decision will make it very difficult for a rider to get put into the first wave in the future since there is going to be a rule change next year for who gets which grid placement for the first weekend making grid placement based on last year's class points.

All of the people who are just entering the class will have to get lucky or have a hard struggle to earn the spot in the first wave.

Personally if waves are going to be done, then grid positions need to be based on lap times (pratice, qualifing, whatever) so that someone who is entering the class has a shot of actually placing well without having to make up the space between the waves. 20 seconds on guys who run the same pace as you is impossible to make up in 10 laps.

[piper907]

I like what you guys are trying to do... but chris does have a point.

[Simonpie]

While I don't necessarily disagree with the wave start concept, it seems they could be fully safe with a very short hold time. Even 5 seconds is enough to let turn 1-2 empty out the big clot at the start.

Simon
#23

[Mr Sunshine]

While I don't necessarily disagree with the wave start concept, it seems they could be fully safe with a very short hold time. Even 5 seconds is enough to let turn 1-2 empty out the big clot at the start.

Simon
#23

but 5 seconds isn't enough to make sure everyone clears turn 2 before you start the second wave. you want to do this to make sure no red flags or potentional red flag crashes occur (I would guess anytime there are more than 1 bike involved in a crash on the start in the first couple of corners would bring out a red flag right away espcially if there is another wave sitting there getting ready to go) before you release the 2nd wave.

[RickRinaldo123]

Personally if waves are going to be done, then grid positions need to be based on lap times (pratice, qualifing, whatever) so that someone who is entering the class has a shot of actually placing well without having to make up the space between the waves. 20 seconds on guys who run the same pace as you is impossible to make up in 10 laps.


I totally agree -- it would be nice to see this refined a bit.

[spike78]

Maybe I'm not understanding this very well. Does this mean that final finishing position will be determined by total race time rather than who actually crosses the finish line first? In this situation it would be possible for the winner to not actually cross the finish line first. :)

[Mr Sunshine]

Maybe I'm not understanding this very well. Does this mean that final finishing position will be determined by total race time rather than who actually crosses the finish line first? In this situation it would be possible for the winner to not actually cross the finish line first. :)

He made no indicatation of changing who the winner is which means its who is across the finish line first.

[dlippis]

Maybe I'm not understanding this very well. Does this mean that final finishing position will be determined by total race time rather than who actually crosses the finish line first? In this situation it would be possible for the winner to not actually cross the finish line first. :)

No, it means the people in the 2nd wave have no chance of winning! Unless you can make up 20 seconds in 10 laps against Sully, Eli, Ross or any other front runner...good luck! The winner will still be the racer who receives the checkered flag first.

[Mr Sunshine]

Allow me to interject some comments.

#1 - I've already written the rule change proposal to change the way we grid people for the first event of the season. I need to make a couple more tweaks but I think it will sufficently address the issue. When the window opens to submit change proposals, I'll be submitting this one.

#2 - What we saw the 2nd race weekend is a bit atypical. We had a really bad first race weekend where it rained pretty hard and a lot of the fast guys either 1) didn't race or 2) didn't finish their race. Because of this situation, you ended up with guy that are typically Top 5 or Top 10 starting anywheres from row 5 - row 9 or 10. Med-Fast guys like me, who did fairly well in the rain, end up on the front row of the grid with all those guys behind me. Which is exactly why I moved myself to the back of the grid in Form Ultra last weekend. :)

Because of the above, the rule change I submit may need to be amended/catered to handle up to the 2nd event, for when situations like this year happen, happen. In all honesty though, in MOST cases, things will shake out after the 1st 2 races and it becomes a non issue IMHO



I've been stewing on this for a bit and its time to reply.

1. A rule change here doesn't change the problem that is trying to be addressed. A large quantity of people charging for turn 1, 2 and 3. All it does is change who is in the front of that pack.

2. This weekend wasn't atypical based on Seattle's weather. The first couple of weekends always have a good chance of being wet which means a great number of people won't run. Then when it becomes nice the grid is overfull with a bunch of people who haven't raced yet that year.


The thought that "it'll work out" is a nice thought in most cases but not in this case. It discounts the seriousness of the situation where what if you are one of the unlucky one's where it doesn't work out. I understand we are racing and things happen. But if there is a way to help mitigate it while keeping things fair, then by all means I'm for it. But standing there and saying "It'll just work out" is not an answer when other solutions have not been brought to the table and thoroughly discussed. In this particular case the only way for it to "work out" is for the grid size to decrease and I don't see many people switching to SV's in the near future.

[justintime2]

No, it means the people in the 2nd wave have no chance of winning! Unless you can make up 20 seconds in 10 laps against Sully, Eli, Ross or any other front runner...good luck!Most of us don't have a chance of making any ground on you guys anyway...your too good! With that said, it doesn't quite seem fair to all the others who are trying their best to grow and win. Maybe the class sizes just need to shrink and you must qualify to run it.

[Mr Sunshine]

Most of us don't have a chance of making any ground on you guys anyway...your too good! With that said, it doesn't quite seem fair to all the others who are trying their best to grow and win. Maybe the class sizes just need to shrink and you must qualify to run it.

the people most screwed are those who are on the first row or two of the second wave. They don't have the ability to gain enough points to get into the first wave and continue their way to the front of the grid. All they can do is hope someone in the rows in front of them doesn't show at a race so the next weekend they can be moved up into the first wave.

[spike78]

This sounds a little ridiculous to me. You can't just spot half the field 5, 10, or 20 seconds and call it a race; especially if there is no qualifier to determine grid position.

It sounds like we are trying to resolve a "people" problem with a "system" solution. If there are certain racers that are running reckless and endangering other riders, pull their licenses. Don't penalize (which is the definition of what you're doing) half the field due to the transgressions of a few people who can't seem to complete a race.
I'm not sure I understand how limiting the amount of riders who start the race addresses "overly aggressive moves made by mid to back of pack racers trying to get the hole shot and win the race in the second turn". This solution still has those riders in the race and does not address the behavior you are attempting to modify.

Without a qualifier, the assumption is being made that racers run every race in the WMRRA season (aligning grid position closely with finishing position), that no rider improves their skills at a rate differing from the rest of the field, and that all riders run the same speed and are exactly as competitive in the wet as in the dry which we all know is not the case.

[Rated R]

This sounds a little ridiculous to me. You can't just spot half the field 5, 10, or 20 seconds and call it a race; especially if there is no qualifier to determine grid position..........Without a qualifier, the assumption is being made that racers run every race in the WMRRA season (aligning grid position closely with finishing position), that no rider improves their skills at a rate differing from the rest of the field, and that all riders run the same speed and are exactly as competitive in the wet as in the dry which we all know is not the case.

You said it perfectly!

Every single one of the fast guys was at some point slow. As their skills improved with practice, and were rewarded with their current grid positions. A wave start means that anyone that is working their way from the slower ranks to the front runner group, now has virtually no chance of gaining the necessary points needed to earn a better grid position, and can never join the fast group regardless of skill or improvement over the course of the season.

[orangeblurr]

You said it perfectly!

Every single one of the fast guys was at some point slow. As their skills improved with practice, and were rewarded with their current grid positions. A wave start means that anyone that is working their way from the slower ranks to the front runner group, now has virtually no chance of gaining the necessary points needed to earn a better grid position, and can never join the fast group regardless of skill or improvement over the course of the season.

You make a good point. As I read all these entries, I am glad there are so many riders who want something positive to happen. Further, as a beginning novice, I see Sulli and Lippis and those guys really hualin ass. It's almost discouraging to hear that we'll have to earn a grid spot when it already seems like a enourmous challenge to even catch up to those guys let alone let them have ANY head start at all. I don't think that the motive behind the change is to keep any rider in the back of the pack, but in that way, that would actually keep a rider in the second wave, and all the fast riders in the front. As a novice if this went through, it's almost like "what's the point to race?" If I have to feel like I have to go almost an insane race pace to make a grid position, just to be a part of racing, I'm not sure it's worth it. Do you guys know what I mean?

[Mr Sunshine]

You make a good point. As I read all these entries, I am glad there are so many riders who want something positive to happen. Further, as a beginning novice, I see Sulli and Lippis and those guys really hualin ass. It's almost discouraging to hear that we'll have to earn a grid spot when it already seems like a enourmous challenge to even catch up to those guys let alone let them have ANY head start at all. I don't think that the motive behind the change is to keep any rider in the back of the pack, but in that way, that would actually keep a rider in the second wave, and all the fast riders in the front. As a novice if this went through, it's almost like "what's the point to race?" If I have to feel like I have to go almost an insane race pace to make a grid position, just to be a part of racing, I'm not sure it's worth it. Do you guys know what I mean?

No I don't understand what you are saying. You have to earn and fight for every inch on the track which includes the grid position. The difference is that no longer as we just going on consitency but also on how fast you are.

[orangeblurr]

I agree, that you have to fight for a spot. I'm totally down to do that. Am I understanding correctly, that in a wave start that's being proposed, that to move up in the wave, you must finish the race in a certain place, that the grid positions are NOT determined by your lap time? That's how I understood this proposal. If I am correct in understanding this, then my arguement appears to be sound. If not, help me out.

[Lauralynne]

You make a good point. As I read all these entries, I am glad there are so many riders who want something positive to happen. Further, as a beginning novice, I see Sulli and Lippis and those guys really hualin ass. It's almost discouraging to hear that we'll have to earn a grid spot when it already seems like a enourmous challenge to even catch up to those guys let alone let them have ANY head start at all. I don't think that the motive behind the change is to keep any rider in the back of the pack, but in that way, that would actually keep a rider in the second wave, and all the fast riders in the front. As a novice if this went through, it's almost like "what's the point to race?" If I have to feel like I have to go almost an insane race pace to make a grid position, just to be a part of racing, I'm not sure it's worth it. Do you guys know what I mean?

The point is that you're always going to have someone to race with. If you're running 1:2x's you're racing Sully, Lippis, etc. If you're running 1:4x's you're racing the other 1:4x's. Unless you're dog slow (like me- and I even find stragglers to race with :D), there's always at LEAST one other bike near you - just in front or just behind - or several in front several behind that you're racing. The 3 second gap is not to hold anyone back 3 seconds or make it harder to race the "fast guys" - the POINT is to make it safer at the start for the riders in T1, T2, T3 & T4.

[The Squid]

The difference is that no longer as we just going on consitency but also on how fast you are.

You are? Then why am I still at the back? ;)

[Lauralynne]

I agree, that you have to fight for a spot. I'm totally down to do that. Am I understanding correctly, that in a wave start that's being proposed, that to move up in the wave, you must finish the race in a certain place, that the grid positions are NOT determined by your lap time? That's how I understood this proposal. If I am correct in understanding this, then my arguement appears to be sound. If not, help me out.

Grid positions have always been determined by points from the last race you raced in. This means that you're basically gridded in the order you finished the last race in. It's highly unlikely that you're going to make it to the front of that pack for awhile anyway. No offense to you - I've never seen you ride, but in general, it's highly unlikely.

Theorectially - this makes it like one big race all season - it's just "paused" after 10 laps and resumed at the next race. So you've got all season to get to the front. Make sense?

[Lauralynne]

You are? Then why am I still at the back? ;)

'cause I need the company :razz:

[Mr Sunshine]

I agree, that you have to fight for a spot. I'm totally down to do that. Am I understanding correctly, that in a wave start that's being proposed, that to move up in the wave, you must finish the race in a certain place, that the grid positions are NOT determined by your lap time? That's how I understood this proposal. If I am correct in understanding this, then my arguement appears to be sound. If not, help me out.

The race director has used his authority impowered to him by the rule book to change the gridding rules for the remainder of the year. After this he plans to make the propsal so it gets in the book for future years.

The rule change is to do griding differently on grids larger than 30 bikes (I assumed novice grids are excluded but I need to clearify that with him) to split the grid into two waves. What determines which wave you are in you lap times from that class from this year are used. Once placed into a wave you are then grided like normal which is points and then registration date/time.

The time between the waves are 2-4 seconds....and after looking at video by Steve Balch and second hand hearing reports from other races in the second wave...there is no real disadvange to be in the start of the second wave (yes I know...there are cases where you are a really good starter) as that second wave catches the back of the first wave by turn 3.

[Mr Sunshine]

Grid positions have always been determined by points from the last race you raced in. This means that you're basically gridded in the order you finished the last race in. It's highly unlikely that you're going to make it to the front of that pack for awhile anyway. No offense to you - I've never seen you ride, but in general, it's highly unlikely.

Theorectially - this makes it like one big race all season - it's just "paused" after 10 laps and resumed at the next race. So you've got all season to get to the front. Make sense?

To clearify your first sentence. Its overall point for the year from the class not just the number of points you picked up from the last race.

[Mr Sunshine]

You are? Then why am I still at the back? ;)


That's it..I still have to do the new gridding rules code...so now there's gonna be a:

if( (rider.lastname == "Beebe") && (rider.firstname == "Will") )
{
rider.position = Position.LAST;
}

:lmao:

[Lauralynne]

To clearify your first sentence. Its overall point for the year from the class not just the number of points you picked up from the last race.

we're saying the same thing, mine's just worded poorly :)

[orangeblurr]

yeah, it does make sense. I guess I was just reading too far into it.

[orangeblurr]

The race director has used his authority impowered to him by the rule book to change the gridding rules for the remainder of the year. After this he plans to make the propsal so it gets in the book for future years.

The rule change is to do griding differently on grids larger than 30 bikes (I assumed novice grids are excluded but I need to clearify that with him) to split the grid into two waves. What determines which wave you are in you lap times from that class from this year are used. Once placed into a wave you are then grided like normal which is points and then registration date/time.

The time between the waves are 2-4 seconds....and after looking at video by Steve Balch and second hand hearing reports from other races in the second wave...there is no real disadvange to be in the start of the second wave (yes I know...there are cases where you are a really good starter) as that second wave catches the back of the first wave by turn 3.
oh so they're saying that there will be a "fast" group and a "not as fast" group, and each group is separate. So there will be a first place for the first wave and a first place for the second wave? Or is it only one first place and if you are in the second wave, you just have to keep finishing races and earning possibly only one point at a time to advance to the first wave?

[Mr Sunshine]

oh so they're saying that there will be a "fast" group and a "not as fast" group, and each group is separate. So there will be a first place for the first wave and a first place for the second wave? Or is it only one first place and if you are in the second wave, you just have to keep finishing races and earning possibly only one point at a time to advance to the first wave?

No...they are in the scored the same. Watch the video...Steve posted here on this forum. You will see the front of the second wave on the heels of the first wave by turn 3 so its a non-issue.

If you want to advance to the first wave all you have to do is put down 1:31's or fastest at Pacific (which is currently about where the wave is split but that moves around depending on who is running that heat that day)

[orangeblurr]

right on.

[Motophotog]

Wow... I just read this whole thread. I gotta hand it to all of you. Nice reading this topic where something so controversial is handled very professionally and respectfully. Bravo to all of you. Secondly, I'll add that as Chris said 2-4 seconds isnt realy anything, refering back to "if you're fast, you're fast"... but that 20-30 second talk, that woulda been umm... weird? I look forward to seeing/hearing how this pans out.

Best thread i've read on this site for sure.

[Mr Sunshine]

Wow... I just read this whole thread. I gotta hand it to all of you. Nice reading this topic where something so controversial is handled very professionally and respectfully. Bravo to all of you. Secondly, I'll add that as Chris said 2-4 seconds isnt realy anything, refering back to "if you're fast, you're fast"... but that 20-30 second talk, that woulda been umm... weird? I look forward to seeing/hearing how this pans out.

Best thread i've read on this site for sure.

As an FYI what is happening is for any grid larger than 30 bikes it is getting split in half with a 2-4 second mini-wave in the middle. This has worked well for the past two race weekends. Steve Balch also posted a video of what it looks like to be on the first row of the second wave. Go to the video's section to find it.

[Motophotog]

Sounds good downloading now......