View Full Version : 180 vs 190 on a 600
AndrewN
03-08-2007, 10:46 AM
any thoughts on running a 190 as apposed to a 180 on a 600rr ?? I've herd this argued both ways. lean angle...contact area... ?? bad idea... just personal prefference ?
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 10:56 AM
You can't just say a 190 on a 600rr. You also need to give the aspect ratio as there are different ones out there.
But the gist of it is this....unless you are having traction issues with the rear tire (generally you are spinning up the rear on corner exit) and you have tried to tune it out through geometry changes, then yes the 190 rear might be something to try.
Ex Presidente
03-08-2007, 11:10 AM
Andrew - I've run both on my 600 (03 R6). I like the 190 however the thing that I found with the Michelin is it felt really soft when completly leaned over. So I preferred the 180 with the Michelins.
The downside is that the bike steered a little slow, wasn't as flickable, as they say. But wasn't that notiveable.
If you haven't run a 190 before, try and do an entire track day with one on so you can really get a feel for it.
Luke
piper907
03-08-2007, 11:23 AM
I like the 190 however the thing that I found with the Michelin is it felt really soft when completly leaned over. So I preferred the 180 with the Michelins.
The downside is that the bike steered a little slow, wasn't as flickable, as they say. But wasn't that notiveable.
If you haven't run a 190 before, try and do an entire track day with one on so you can really get a feel for it.
+1... If you are going to be on Michelin tires, I liked the 180 on my 600.
It seems to me that running a 190 rear tire (depending on the actual size of the tire) on a 600 usually requires some geometry changes to get back some of the swingarm angle... which might also affect the rake and trail of the bike. BUT you never know until you try :)
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 11:25 AM
Question. Why try something when you don't have a noticable problem? Honest question.
piper907
03-08-2007, 12:05 PM
Question. Why try something when you don't have a noticable problem? Honest question.
that sound like something Rick would say:p
Honest answer:
how do you know if your bike can handle or corner any better until you know what "better" is?
It's like saying why should I buy a new bike when mine works just fine?
My opinion: How do you know what is going to work better for you If you never explore your options? I always thought that stock brake pads worked just fine for stopping my bike (which they do)... until I tried a set of aftermarket and it stopped BETTER! Same goes with tires, suspension, geometry, etc.
If you never explore your options, you will never find out what works better for you. Worst case, you put everything back the way it was and you are no worse off.
Has the rider in front of you found what works better for him/her:confused:
Ex Presidente
03-08-2007, 12:08 PM
It's called TESTING! If a 190 is going to allow me to get on the gas earlier and harder....I'll never know since I didn't try it!
Going to a 190 could be the magic set-up for one rider and not another.
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 02:06 PM
It's called TESTING! If a 190 is going to allow me to get on the gas earlier and harder....I'll never know since I didn't try it!
Going to a 190 could be the magic set-up for one rider and not another.
In this case wouldn't you notice some slipping and sliding around due to lack of grip?
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 02:08 PM
that sound like something Rick would say:p
Honest answer:
how do you know if your bike can handle or corner any better until you know what "better" is?
It's like saying why should I buy a new bike when mine works just fine?
My opinion: How do you know what is going to work better for you If you never explore your options? I always thought that stock brake pads worked just fine for stopping my bike (which they do)... until I tried a set of aftermarket and it stopped BETTER! Same goes with tires, suspension, geometry, etc.
If you never explore your options, you will never find out what works better for you. Worst case, you put everything back the way it was and you are no worse off.
Has the rider in front of you found what works better for him/her:confused:
Why yes...yes it is.
In the case of brake pads the problem becomes "Gee...I want to stop harder and I think I'm doing everything I can. Lets go out and try some different brake pads".
Generally I do believe that for us (ok fine for me) the reason why the rider in front of me is in front of me is not because of equipment (compared to my bike) but the two little oval things dangling between my legs OR because of a lack of skill I have compared to that rider.
This does assume we both "know" the track.
piper907
03-08-2007, 02:29 PM
In this case wouldn't you notice some slipping and sliding around due to lack of grip?
If you haven't felt your tires slide than you haven't found the limit of your riding and you need to go faster...
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 02:58 PM
If you haven't felt your tires slide than you haven't found the limit of your riding and you need to go faster...
So why go to a larger rear tire? Generally its for the larger contact patch. Why would you need a larger contact patch? For when you are spinning up your rear of course.
So unless you are noticing you are spin up your rear tire why go to a larger rear wheel?
For example I had Barry setup my SV's geometry to a known baseline. In doing so it turned out that the front tire is a tad to tall compared to the rear for him to get the bike at the baseline he wanted it at. So he made some compromises. I rode it at T-Hill and I made some small changes to the geometry to try address a couple of little problems I noticed with the bike (based on how I want the bike). Now did I just go out and make those changes without a very specific thing to fix that I noticed in the bike? Nope.
The point I am driving out is yes there is testing. Testing isn't about going out and just throwing random stuff on your bike to see what it does. Testing is about going out and tuning your bike to you. You don't need to just throw stuff at your bike unless you are having specific problems. You then address those problems by thinking about what is going on and looking for the solution that *should* help solve it. Then you throw on there and test. What did it do? Rinse, repeat until you are happy that the problem you are having is solved.
What I say is likely going to get a "Well duh!" response but from what I read I didn't feel as though what I said was understood so I wrote it.
AndrewN
03-08-2007, 03:48 PM
Question. Why try something when you don't have a noticable problem? Honest question.
I bought the bike setup from another racer - He raced pirelli's and recomended 190 in the rear, he really liked it. I'm riding on Dunlop this year, which from what i understand, will require me to set up my suspension a bit different. So .. Dunlop 190 .. try or no try ? i'm used to Michellins on the '01 R6 last year - this year '03 600rr on Dunlops.
AndrewN
03-08-2007, 03:51 PM
If you haven't felt your tires slide than you haven't found the limit of your riding and you need to go faster...
+1 got to push it to get better.
piper907
03-08-2007, 04:00 PM
DUNLOPs are the SHIT!
190 DUNLOPs are REALLY the SHIT!
wmrra16
03-08-2007, 04:02 PM
Barry???
The new Dunlops are all 190's right?
190/55ZR-17-"NTec
190/60ZR-17
non "NTec"
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 04:03 PM
DUNLOPs are the SHIT!
190 DUNLOPs are REALLY the SHIT!
So what you are saying is Dunlops are shitty? :p
The new Dunlops are all 190's right?
sure...unless you buy them in a 180 lol.
If you haven't felt your tires slide than you haven't found the limit of your riding and you need to go faster...
what i say verbatum - "go. more. faster."
AndrewN
03-08-2007, 04:40 PM
Now did I just go out and make those changes without a very specific thing to fix that I noticed in the bike? Nope.
The point I am driving out is yes there is testing. Testing isn't about going out and just throwing random stuff on your bike to see what it does. Testing is about going out and tuning your bike to you. You don't need to just throw stuff at your bike unless you are having specific problems.
I disagree - I think you're way to analytical. Granted it can be very useful - but yes, I will just go throw something on my bike and see if it feels better. I'll ask what it might do before hand and then ask why it did what it did after. sometimes inexperienced riders don't know what or if there is a specific problem because they don't know what it should feel like. Thats why i'm asking now - to see what I can expect and see if there are any general differences or benefits or downsides to look for. I just don't think the left side of my brain works as hard as yours. :-)
Edit: Fixed your ending quote tag.
wmrra16
03-08-2007, 04:40 PM
sure...unless you buy them in a 180 lol.
Or as in they don't make the new tire in a 180! But hey, thanks for helping out:(
AndrewN
03-08-2007, 04:55 PM
Or as in they don't make the new tire in a 180! But hey, thanks for helping out:(
well if thats all i get, then that's gonna make my decison real easy :-)
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 05:47 PM
I disagree - I think you're way to analytical. Granted it can be very useful - but yes, I will just go throw something on my bike and see if it feels better. I'll ask what it might do before hand and then ask why it did what it did after. sometimes inexperienced riders don't know what or if there is a specific problem because they don't know what it should feel like. Thats why i'm asking now - to see what I can expect and see if there are any general differences or benefits or downsides to look for. I just don't think the left side of my brain works as hard as yours. :-)
I am a developer which writes test code for a living. The left side of my brain is always working.
You see I just don't believe in tripping my way faster. If I understand what I am trying to fix when I make a change then I can identify if it fixed it. Thus in the future I'll know what needs to happen when I am faced with a similiar situation.
Sure it might make me take a little bit longer to ramp up but I firmly believe it means I'll be able to sustain and continue the progress well past those who just trip their way up the ramp.
Or as in they don't make the new tire in a 180! But hey, thanks for helping out:(
lol who told you that? you might want to give Dunlop a call and advise them to stop making fake tyres ;)
Dunlop (http://dunlopracing.com/fitment.htm)
D209GP
120/70x17 || 160/60x17 || 180/55x17 || 190/60x17
FISHGUY
03-08-2007, 06:41 PM
I cant see that the 180 would just go away...?????
well if thats all i get, then that's gonna make my decison real easy :-)
that's not all you get - it's ok, you can go back to being confused :p
I cant see that the 180 would just go away...?????
Dunlop (http://dunlopracing.com/fitment.htm)
^the 180 hasn't gone anywhere.
wmrra16
03-08-2007, 06:44 PM
lol who told you that? you should probably give Dunlop a call and advise them to stop making fake tyres ;)
Dunlop (http://dunlopracing.com/fitment.htm)
Thanks for showing all of us the 2006 tires... but it's just about as helpful as your last post:D
As for the source, it was Dunlop via KFG that gave me the information.
Thanks for showing all of us the 2006 tires... but it's just about as helpful as your last post:D
As for the source, it was Dunlop via KFG that gave me the information.
yeah yeah, i know who it was. you can get the 180. you just need to ask for it.
KFG said the 180 didn't exist last year (or in 2k5) either - what he really meant was he didn't order them.
give Dunlop or Sport Tire a call...you'd be surprised ;)
wmrra16
03-08-2007, 06:50 PM
yeah yeah, i know who it was. you can get the 180. you just need to ask for it.
KFG said the 180 didn't exist last year either - what he really meant was he didn't order them.
give Dunlop or Sport Tire a call...you'd be surprised ;)
Oh don't get me wrong, Sport tire still has them... there are a bunch around I bet. It's just not a tire that is in production for the 2007 tire spec.
Oh don't get me wrong, Sport tire still has them... there are a bunch around I bet. It's just not a tire that is in production for the 2007 tire spec.
i'm not sure why you think Dunlop isn't making the 180 any longer. that wouldn't financially make sense for them since loads of people still use the 180 209GP.
i guess the Sport Tire guys are all on crack as of two days ago - i'll call them back in the morning and ask them, to tell Dunlop, to stop making the 180 along with the NTech. pffft...ghost tyres. what crap lol.
wmrra16
03-08-2007, 07:01 PM
i'm not sure why you think Dunlop isn't making the 180 any longer. that wouldn't financially make sense for them since loads of people still use the 180 209GP.
i guess the Sport Tire guys are all on crack as of two days ago - i'll call them back in the morning and ask them, to tell Dunlop, to stop making the 180 along with the NTech. pffft...ghost tyres. what crap lol.
You do that!
:rolleyes:
Mr Sunshine
03-08-2007, 07:12 PM
Ok let's assume, and I'm making a big assumption, that Dunlop isn't making a 180, why?
Ok let's assume, and I'm making a big assumption, that Dunlop isn't making a 180, why?
that would be like Honda stopping production of the Civic and saying they are only going to produce the Accord 'cause it's just a lil' bit bigger...
Mr. Marcel - an acquantence of mine (AMA #767) will be running 180 209GPs on his 2k6 GSX-R600 this year as well. looks like he'll have to switch to the accord :p
Dunlop might as well be cutting cheques to Bridgstone, Michelin, and Pirelli...
Ex Presidente
03-09-2007, 06:50 AM
What it ultimatley comes down to is what will give you that little advantage over the guy behind you to make sure he stays there. IT's CALLED RACING!
For instance, with a 190 dunlop on my bike I can lean the bike over that much more to hold a tighter line in certain corners, 2, 4, 9 for example and not sacrifice grip or drive out of the corner.
That works for me, that doesn't mean it will work for everyone! Even you Chris :)
AndrewN
03-09-2007, 07:57 AM
What it ultimatley comes down to is what will give you that little advantage over the guy behind you to make sure he stays there. IT's CALLED RACING!
For instance, with a 190 dunlop on my bike I can lean the bike over that much more to hold a tighter line in certain corners, 2, 4, 9 for example and not sacrifice grip or drive out of the corner.
That works for me, that doesn't mean it will work for everyone! Even you Chris :)
Can't wait to try it out - thanks for the input. That's pretty much what i've been hearing..
Ex Presidente
03-09-2007, 08:54 AM
Hey Andrew - I'm going to be at the AF day on the 30th of this month. Find me and we can talk more about this if you like or PM me and we can discuss before.
Luke
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