Red flagging a race, when & why?

[justintime2]

I don't want this to turn into a flaming war against individuals or officials/volunteers as it's just a question for learning. So keep it productive.

Sundays expert class race was red flagged I assume due to the number of crashes, if that is wrong please correct me as I'm guessing.

Sundays novice race had far more crashes but was not red flagged.

How is the decision made to red flag a race and who makes it?

I personally, with no experience or qualifications to do so, think the Novice race should have been red flagged as it became far to dangerous and was a miserable experience. If I didn't log a DNF for pitting I would have done so to avoid the carnage.

I don't remember that many crashing on the April 1st rain race and the track this wknd felt extra slippery/greasy to me. Is this assessment In my head or do others feel the same, and if so why the difference from one wet track day to the next?

Again not second guessing or trashing anyone just sharing my opinion and trying to learn how these decisions are made. :)

[Mr Sunshine]

My understanding of a red flag in the race is due to mainly an injury to someone where they need immediate medical attention. The idea of the red flag at that time is to stop the race so the ambulance can get to the individual in need ASAP.

Other than that...a red flag doesn't generally happen.


As to the track. I was running race rains and I felt that the track was slipper in places than I remember when it was wet....but I am not used to the rains yet so likely it was just the tire moving around under me being normal and all that.

Of course I finished in the rear because I was having technical problems with my bike so I had to take the race as easy as possible to avoid crashing out. I hope I did a good job of staying out of the faster guys way. It felt like I did because there were no close passes on me.

Why did you end up pitting?

[timk]

How is the decision made to red flag a race and who makes it?The answer to at least the "who" part of that question is in your rule book:

H.6: The only persons authorized to stop a race are race control, referee and race director. This shall be done by displaying a waving red flag overhead at the start/finish line and at all corner stations.

Sundays expert class race was red flagged I assume due to the number of crashes, if that is wrong please correct me as I'm guessing.

Sundays novice race had far more crashes but was not red flagged.
I am not race control, referee, or race director -- so take what I say here as completely unofficial but just based on my experience with the club...

The Open Supersport race wasn't red flagged because of the number of crashes, but because there was an unconscious racer in an impact zone (Jim Pittman, at the exit of the bus stop). There was no safe way to attend to him while racing continued, so the race was stopped.

In general, and this goes for WMRRA to MotoGP and everything in between, if the crashed rider(s) and bike(s) cannot be safely and quickly moved out of the impact zone(s), then the race is stopped, otherwise it continues.

So even if half the field crashes out of a race, it's not necessarily an automatic red flag if all the carnage can be handled in a way that allows the racing to continue. It's a judgement call by the parties specified in the rules.

$.02

[justintime2]

Why did you end up pitting?
I didn't pit, just felt like it to avoid the carnage and definitely wasn't having any fun on that one. I didn't pit to avoid a DNF. :)

[justintime2]

The Open Supersport race wasn't red flagged because of the number of crashes, but because there was an unconscious racer in an impact zone (Jim Pittman, at the exit of the bus stop).
Is he OK?

[timk]

Is he OK?He was up and around and hanging out in the pits later in the day, so he's at least pretty much ok. I was told though that he didn't get the medical clearance to race any more that day because he was still a bit loopy. He must've hit his head pretty good. It sure was scary to see him just laying there, not moving anything at all. I would've thrown a red flag too if it was my call.

[gazman]

I was corner working in t-5 and the reason we stopped the race was because we had 3 bikes go down at the same place at the same time and then when everyone got to t-7, a rider went down and he was not moving. In novice, bike went down here and there, not all at once. And every rider got up. If a rider does not move after a crash, they will red flag it. Besides, they redid the race at the end of the day.

[gazman]

Oh ya, most racers who crashed in the novice race on sunday were just not being careful for the condistions. Remember, novice is there to pass to expert, no ponits. also, there were a lot more bikes in the novice race then the race you are talking about. The crashes did not start until the 3rd lap

[Mr Sunshine]

Oh ya, most racers who crashed in the novice race on sunday were just not being careful for the condistions. Remember, novice is there to pass to expert, no ponits. also, there were a lot more bikes in the novice race then the race you are talking about. The crashes did not start until the 3rd lap

which is why I won novice heat 2 this past weekend. I was one of the slowest guys out there but I stayed up. :P I had some technical issues and with the way the track was I wasn't going to risk it. so I finished, rode a very safe race and onto spokane I go which I don't think alot of novices will be going to.

[341]

Tim is correct on this one. We red flagged the Open SS race because Jim Pittman needed medical attention. Troy341

[justintime2]

Oh ya, most racers who crashed in the novice race on sunday were just not being careful for the condistions.
I disagree with that statement and don't think you would have any facts to support it.

Using your mentality can the same conclusion be drawn about the experts not being carefull enough for their conditions? I think not.

[justintime2]

I was corner working in t-5 and the reason we stopped the race was because we had 3 bikes go down at the same place at the same time and then when everyone got to t-7, a rider went down and he was not moving. In novice, bike went down here and there, not all at once. And every rider got up. If a rider does not move after a crash, they will red flag it. Besides, they redid the race at the end of the day.
I'm not sure what you mean by "we" stopped the race, I don't see how you would be part of that decision matrix.

Again I disagree with you as I think the totality of the wrecks indicates a larger problem and sometimes the higher powers need to interveen. Seeing multiple wrecks in every corner is a sever distraction and adds to further wrecks. Nothing productive was coming from the race continuing, in my opinion. But I don't make that decision so that's why I'm trying to find out the perspective of those who do.

[Mr Sunshine]

I disagree with that statement and don't think you would have any facts to support it.

Using your mentality can the same conclusion be drawn about the experts not being carefull enough for their conditions? I think not.

That is the logical conclusion. Unless the racer was hit they were riding at a speed which was out of their capability (or their bikes) to handle the turn due to the conditions that were present in that turn.

Do you want to blame the number of crashes on the track? If so then you are looking at the wrong place if you want to be number 1. Everyone has to deal with the track just some people dealt with it within their capabilities. The track isn't always perfect and that is part of the challenge.

[Mr Sunshine]

I'm not sure what you mean by "we" stopped the race, I don't see how you would be part of that decision matrix.

Again I disagree with you as I think the totality of the wrecks indicates a larger problem and sometimes the higher powers need to interveen. Seeing multiple wrecks in every corner is a sever distraction and adds to further wrecks. Nothing productive was coming from the race continuing, in my opinion. But I don't make that decision so that's why I'm trying to find out the perspective of those who do.

He was working the corners that day so as part of the corner working crew ya he helped in stopping the race.

In the novice heat #2 race there was one bike which crashes on the exit of 3. It was turned around and the front of the bike was facing my initial look into the corner. That was a major distraction. But you are racing. You have to ignore it and get down to business. That is part of the skill in racing. You have to block out everything that isn't important and just get down to business.

I found that race to be VERY productive as it took 8 novices and made them wait one more race to graduate. This is competition and now I have a chance a one more expert race then them to get points and beat them by the end of the year.

During the first heat of the weekend (saturday) I blew turn 5 and had to take turn 6 slowly. I did it in such a way that blocked people from passing me and I got the right line for 7. I throttled up and started my drift to the outside. Suddenly I see a guy on my outside and I am around 3 feet from the edge of the track. What did I do? I tightened my normal line a little because I didn't want to hit the guy. What should I have done? Well I had position and if you can't make the pass, then go dirt tracking. One less racer that can take my position.

Remember what Luke said during the NRC classroom. He said that you are racing. Every moment you are out there you are working to get in front of that person in front of you.

So in my opinion if you can't take that reality, then stop racing. Its just not for you.

[justintime2]

He was working the corners that day so as part of the corner working crew ya he helped in stopping the race.

In the novice heat #2 race there was one bike which crashes on the exit of 3. It was turned around and the front of the bike was facing my initial look into the corner. That was a major distraction. But you are racing. You have to ignore it and get down to business. That is part of the skill in racing. You have to block out everything that isn't important and just get down to business.

I found that race to be VERY productive as it took 8 novices and made them wait one more race to graduate. This is competition and now I have a chance a one more expert race then them to get points and beat them by the end of the year.

During the first heat of the weekend (saturday) I blew turn 5 and had to take turn 6 slowly. I did it in such a way that blocked people from passing me and I got the right line for 7. I throttled up and started my drift to the outside. Suddenly I see a guy on my outside and I am around 3 feet from the edge of the track. What did I do? I tightened my normal line a little because I didn't want to hit the guy. What should I have done? Well I had position and if you can't make the pass, then go dirt tracking. One less racer that can take my position.

Remember what Luke said during the NRC classroom. He said that you are racing. Every moment you are out there you are working to get in front of that person in front of you.

So in my opinion if you can't take that reality, then stop racing. Its just not for you.
Very enlightening but non-sense. If you think sending someone dirt tracking because you fouled up a line is your right, well that's crap.

Corner workers report what is going on to the people who make the decisions to stop a race, their insight is what I'm looking for. It is interesting to hear their perspective but they don't make that call. If I'm wrong correct me.

Too safe for conditions? The whole F'n thing is too safe for conditions if you look at it that way. Were not in traffic court and that concept is poopoo here.

Anyone that see's someone crashing as "productive" or "good for you" is someone I don't want to hang around with. You probably don't want to hang around with me either as I hope everyone makes it through, doesn't have to make expensive repairs, get injured or maybe even die so I can gain a few advantages.

Thanks for pointing out that it's racing but I already knew that, I just think sportmanship is part of being competitive. Your post clearly spells out that you think differently. Hope your faster than your karma, it sounds like you'll need to be. :)

[justintime2]

That is the logical conclusion. Unless the racer was hit they were riding at a speed which was out of their capability (or their bikes) to handle the turn due to the conditions that were present in that turn.

Do you want to blame the number of crashes on the track? If so then you are looking at the wrong place if you want to be number 1. Everyone has to deal with the track just some people dealt with it within their capabilities. The track isn't always perfect and that is part of the challenge.
Hit your qoute button if you can find anyone other than yourself saying their blaming the crashes on the track.

Just go ahead and cut and paste "I want to be #1" into every post you make from now on, it seems to be the only thing you look at.

No offense but you haven't added anything to this thread so maybe move on. I disagree's with yamaha's post but at least he posted something. :)

[Mr Sunshine]

Very enlightening but non-sense. If you think sending someone dirt tracking because you fouled up a line is your right, well that's crap.

Corner workers report what is going on to the people who make the decisions to stop a race, their insight is what I'm looking for. It is interesting to hear their perspective but they don't make that call. If I'm wrong correct me.

Too safe for conditions? The whole F'n thing is too safe for conditions if you look at it that way. Were not in traffic court and that concept is poopoo here.

Anyone that see's someone crashing as "productive" or "good for you" is someone I don't want to hang around with. You probably don't want to hang around with me either as I hope everyone makes it through, doesn't have to make expensive repairs, get injured or maybe even die so I can gain a few advantages.

Thanks for pointing out that it's racing but I already knew that, I just think sportmanship is part of being competitive. Your post clearly spells out that you think differently. Hope your faster than your karma, it sounds like you'll need to be. :)

Perhaps you didn't read my writting correctly. I'' say it in a different way.

I screwed up turn 5 which caused me to come off the throttle for turn 6 as I was way too tight to make that corner at the speed I was going without either a) going way wide and then swooping into turn 7 or b) low siding into the dirt. I regained my line for turn 7 at which time someone tried to pass me on the outside and there was no way they would make it. I stayed tight to be nice but I really didn't have to as staying tight could have let them by.

Look I don't want someone to crash or even die but shit happens and I will captalize on it if I have the opportunity.

Sportsmanship is defined as playing by the rules. Drifting wide when someone is trying to pass me on the outside is playing by the rules. There is no rule that says "if someone is trying to pass, let them by".

Finally if you don't want to win, then why are you competing? Serious, this is a question I have for anyone in a competition.

[341]

The corner worker can recommend that a race be stopped. The only person to stop the race is "race control", Chris Loomis in the tower. As was said before, it isn't the number of wrecks that dictates whether a race is stopped, there is a lot of other things that factor in to the decision. Have you volunteered as a corner worker? This will help you understand what goes on. Sometimes the corner worker is so busy in the situation, they don't communicate enough to control, so a red flag may be slow in coming out. Troy341

[justintime2]

The corner worker can recommend that a race be stopped. The only person to stop the race is "race control", Chris Loomis in the tower. As was said before, it isn't the number of wrecks that dictates whether a race is stopped, there is a lot of other things that factor in to the decision. Have you volunteered as a corner worker? This will help you understand what goes on. Sometimes the corner worker is so busy in the situation, they don't communicate enough to control, so a red flag may be slow in coming out. Troy341
This is the info I'm looking for! Thanks and I will be volunteering for corner working on June 11th. :)
Can you elaborate even breifly as to a few of the things considered for stopping a race?

[justintime2]

Perhaps you didn't read my writting correctly. I'' say it in a different way.

I screwed up turn 5 which caused me to come off the throttle for turn 6 as I was way too tight to make that corner at the speed I was going without either a) going way wide and then swooping into turn 7 or b) low siding into the dirt. I regained my line for turn 7 at which time someone tried to pass me on the outside and there was no way they would make it. I stayed tight to be nice but I really didn't have to as staying tight could have let them by.

Look I don't want someone to crash or even die but shit happens and I will captalize on it if I have the opportunity.

Sportsmanship is defined as playing by the rules. Drifting wide when someone is trying to pass me on the outside is playing by the rules. There is no rule that says "if someone is trying to pass, let them by".

Finally if you don't want to win, then why are you competing? Serious, this is a question I have for anyone in a competition.
Thanks for clearing up your point. Your correct that there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of doors that have been opened for you, or you have opened for yourself. I would just hope that character has a place in that process as well, wrecking your bike for any reason has numerous implications of varying severity for everyone.

I don't think you have seen me say anywhere that I don't want to be #1. However if being #1 is your only destination, that doesn't leave alot of room for sucess if you fall short. Competing is also about challenging yourself and winning. I will never trade character for a win however. To each his own and I hope you do reach #1. :)

[gazman]

I disagree with that statement and don't think you would have any facts to support it.

Using your mentality can the same conclusion be drawn about the experts not being carefull enough for their conditions? I think not.


actually some of the guys who crahsed said they were going too fast for the turn and as the corner worker that day, we knew there were going to be quite a few crashes in every class. In fact, there was a crash every race until i think it was the 750 race.

[gazman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "we" stopped the race, I don't see how you would be part of that decision matrix.

Again I disagree with you as I think the totality of the wrecks indicates a larger problem and sometimes the higher powers need to interveen. Seeing multiple wrecks in every corner is a sever distraction and adds to further wrecks. Nothing productive was coming from the race continuing, in my opinion. But I don't make that decision so that's why I'm trying to find out the perspective of those who do.
are you trying to start a fight? I said it for all the corner workers who were apart of sunday

[gazman]

tell you what justintime, do some conrer working more often and you'll see what goes on. Its fun to race and to corner work. I can't wait to do it again

[justintime2]

No fight just trying to get info from those that actually make the decision. From a few of the responses though it sounds like they rely heavily on what the corner workers are telling them.

Living this far from the track precludes me from participating at a higher level when it comes to volunteering but I would like too otherwise. :)

[Hypnotiq]

Most of the points have already been covered, so I'll try not to reiterate too much.
I was corner working T7 on Sunday with another Novice, Pat.

#1 - As stated earlier, the OpenSS race was stopped because of an injured rider who was not moving. Control makes the call based on information provided to them from corner workers.

#2 - Even though there were a ton of crashes there was nothing (from what I saw) that constituted shutting down the Novice race or that it was unsafe (well any less safe than usual). I can't speak for all corners, but the 3 bikes that were down in our area, none of the bikes or riders were in the impact zone. they were moved out of the way and the riders moved to behind the tire wall.

Now lets all just get along already. http://www.eternaltides.com/emoticons/nanana.gif

[Mr Sunshine]

#2 - Even though there were a ton of crashes there was nothing (from what I saw) that constituted shutting down the Novice race or that it was unsafe (well any less safe than usual). I can't speak for all corners, but the 3 bikes that were down in our area, none of the bikes or riders were in the impact zone. they were moved out of the way and the riders moved to behind the tire wall.

so what you are trying to say is that the turn 7 air fence that we setup this past weekend wasn't used? excellent!

[gazman]

I know one bike hit the air fense in 7 but it was fine

[341]

Living this far from the track precludes me from participating at a higher level when it comes to volunteering but I would like too otherwise. :)


You got no excuse, I live in Wenatchee and I'm at every race at 6(ish) a.m. Troy341

[341]

This is the info I'm looking for! Thanks and I will be volunteering for corner working on June 11th. :)
Can you elaborate even breifly as to a few of the things considered for stopping a race?

If the rider is injured and needs immedieate medical attention.
If the bike is in the track and can't be safely moved by the corner workers, we won't put them in danger just to keep a race going.
Oil on the track.
Rain starting in a race where the bikes are on slicks, ie. formula ultra or 125GP.

These are what I can think of now, I am sure that there are more. Each situation is evaluated on a case by case basis. There was a wreck in T11 in Spokanistan last year where I requested that the race be stopped and called for an ambulance as I ran across a hot track. Control called for the red flag before I even reached the rider. Hope this help. If you corner work, do it in a corner where you need help going faster. Watching how the fast guys go through is always a good lesson. Troy341

[Mr Sunshine]

You got no excuse, I live in Wenatchee and I'm at every race at 6(ish) a.m. Troy341
*narf*

sorry couldn't let that go. Thanks Troy for your hard work!!

[justintime2]

You got no excuse, I live in Wenatchee and I'm at every race at 6(ish) a.m. Troy341
-Manage a distribution warehouse
-Lieutenant fire fighter/EMT
-VP of Whatcom County Dive Rescue team working w/Sheriff's dept.
-PTA @ school
-Single dad
-& now road racing
Yeah...got plenty of time! :)

[justintime2]

Good info below...thanks! :)
Will definitely be getting to a corner I need the most help with to get the most out of it, good idea.
If the rider is injured and needs immedieate medical attention.
If the bike is in the track and can't be safely moved by the corner workers, we won't put them in danger just to keep a race going.
Oil on the track.
Rain starting in a race where the bikes are on slicks, ie. formula ultra or 125GP.

These are what I can think of now, I am sure that there are more. Each situation is evaluated on a case by case basis. There was a wreck in T11 in Spokanistan last year where I requested that the race be stopped and called for an ambulance as I ran across a hot track. Control called for the red flag before I even reached the rider. Hope this help. If you corner work, do it in a corner where you need help going faster. Watching how the fast guys go through is always a good lesson. Troy341

[341]

-Manage a distribution warehouse
-Lieutenant fire fighter/EMT
-VP of Whatcom County Dive Rescue team working w/Sheriff's dept.
-PTA @ school
-Single dad
-& now road racing
Yeah...got plenty of time! :)


Just trashin' on you. You do sound like a busy guy. Troy341

[Hypnotiq]

so what you are trying to say is that the turn 7 air fence that we setup this past weekend wasn't used? excellent!

There was a bike and bike to hit the air fence in the 160 race but outside of that, it was not used. :) Hooray!

[tarheel]

I had a blast!! First time pushing it (for me) on rains. Usually do 2:08's in the rain...I was able to post a 1:56! Aside from the graveyard of bikes taking up some attention, I stayed safe, didn't push it, got a killer holeshot, settled into a nice pace...AND FINISHED!!!! That is the only requirement for us NOVICE racers!

[Wubbie]

which is why I won novice heat 2 this past weekend. I was one of the slowest guys out there but I stayed up. :P I had some technical issues and with the way the track was I wasn't going to risk it. so I finished, rode a very safe race and onto spokane I go which I don't think alot of novices will be going to.

Ummm where do I start with this? You didn't win on Sunday! :rolleyes: Heck I crashed and still placed higher than you :D.Must have got lapped! All I can say to you is at least I crashed running decent times and seeing what I could do!

Now I can't speak for everyone that went down on Sundays race but I can speak for myself. I went down in T7 low siding the rear end of my bike. I had rain tires on but think this was a suspension problem due to me running stock on my R6. I'm a little heavy for it. My best lap was 1:49 before I went down.

For anyone to say those who crashed weren't being carefull and the idea is to just finish the race need to stop racing PERIOD. Last time I checked this is a race. Winning is the objective and improving your overall skills as a rider. Granted there are those who ethier couldn't afford rains are for one reason or another didn't run them. These people went slower and I can respect that.

The idea isn't just to make it to expert. Trust me more than half the Novice class would be more of a danger than anything else at the expert level. If your attitide is to just finish the race and not trying to improve your skills and get faster well good luck to you. In the expert class the middle pack was running in the 1:40's in the rain!

Every weekend I set goals to get faster and push myself harder. I in no way felt like I was pushing to hard, just lost the rear end. I put trust in my bike and tires like everyone should. Don't forget guys it's not if your going to crash it's when. I have had nothing but good experiances with those who run Novice. But if I crash pushing myself to better my riding and lap times so when I make it expert I don't make a fool out of myself whats the problem? Oh and I WILL be in Spokane wouldn't want Thatman to win another race!!!!!!!!!

Now that I'm done ranting I want to say thanks to those who stoped by to make sure I was ok. The B-ham group of guys your awesome! Your the kinda group I like hangin out with. Humble and nice. Jamie you know your the man.

[341]

The rant below is all fine and dandy, but remember, even Freddie Spencer said "to finish first, first you must finish". Don't crash trying to go faster. Go 80% until it is so comfortable that it is now 70%. Then go 80% again, etc. In the races you will obviously push a bit more, but don't go leaping over the edge of your abilities trying to go faster. Keep it upright, it is a lot less expensive. Troy341


Ummm where do I start with this? You didn't win on Sunday! :rolleyes: Heck I crashed and still placed higher than you :D.Must have got lapped! All I can say to you is at least I crashed running decent times and seeing what I could do!

Now I can't speak for everyone that went down on Sundays race but I can speak for myself. I went down in T7 low siding the rear end of my bike. I had rain tires on but think this was a suspension problem due to me running stock on my R6. I'm a little heavy for it. My best lap was 1:49 before I went down.

For anyone to say those who crashed weren't being carefull and the idea is to just finish the race need to stop racing PERIOD. Last time I checked this is a race. Winning is the objective and improving your overall skills as a rider. Granted there are those who ethier couldn't afford rains are for one reason or another didn't run them. These people went slower and I can respect that.

The idea isn't just to make it to expert. Trust me more than half the Novice class would be more of a danger than anything else at the expert level. If your attitide is to just finish the race and not trying to improve your skills and get faster well good luck to you. In the expert class the middle pack was running in the 1:40's in the rain!

Every weekend I set goals to get faster and push myself harder. I in no way felt like I was pushing to hard, just lost the rear end. I put trust in my bike and tires like everyone should. Don't forget guys it's not if your going to crash it's when. I have had nothing but good experiances with those who run Novice. But if I crash pushing myself to better my riding and lap times so when I make it expert I don't make a fool out of myself whats the problem? Oh and I WILL be in Spokane wouldn't want Thatman to win another race!!!!!!!!!

Now that I'm done ranting I want to say thanks to those who stoped by to make sure I was ok. The B-ham group of guys your awesome! Your the kinda group I like hangin out with. Humble and nice. Jamie you know your the man.

[Wubbie]

I felt comfy the whole time, there wasn't a point where I thought I was pushing too hard. Just a freak accidnet that's all. But I would have to agree with your statement!

Don't get me wrong I am in no way trying to stir the pot here. However In no situation should someone assume what others are doing out on the track. Your 100% effort could be someones 50% effort and vis versa. I felt comfy just lost the rear. I was in no way reckless when racing and had a great time.

Thanks to the corner workers for all there help, wouldn't have got the bike back without them that's for sure! :D

[Mr Sunshine]

Now I can't speak for everyone that went down on Sundays race but I can speak for myself. I went down in T7 low siding the rear end of my bike. I had rain tires on but think this was a suspension problem due to me running stock on my R6. I'm a little heavy for it. My best lap was 1:49 before I went down.

If I recall correctly you were number 2 into 7 that race. If I am correct then you had just passed me and I came by to watch you pick yourself up. Glad you are ok.

Trust me every time I put a wheel on the track I am out there to improve myself...but as a novice our number 1 goal is to finish the race. As an expert our number 1 goal is to finish the race with being number 1 a close second.

Sure we should not be allowed to graduate unless we can run times were we aren't a danger to the other experts which must be one reason why we have to be observed by an expert during practice and get other various people's sign off.

It is also why I won't think about graduating novice until I am running at least 1:39 to 1:41. No need to get into the mix of things and get in other people's way.

I'm not going to make any comments about your riding as I am not in any shape or form in a position to do so but I will make this one comment.

But if I crash pushing myself to better my riding and lap times so when I make it expert I don't make a fool out of myself whats the problem?

Riding with the expectation that you have to crash to get faster is not an attitude I share. Sure mistakes will be made and you can crash due to those mistakes. I hope everyone is ok after the fact and learned a new lesson on what not to do. But the amount you crash does not didicate how fast you are or will be. It just shows how many times you made a mistake that you couldn't recover from.

I take the road of making baby steps with the goal of each time improving my lap times and making those improvements consistant. Just like Troy quote Spencer saying, "Ride at 80% until that becomes 70% and then ride at 80% again."

And I'll see ya in Spokane. I'm praying for some good weather...none of that snow Diana talked about during the NRC class! :)

[Wubbie]

If I passed you and crashed then I must have lapped you or you were in the first wave of riders. The lap times aren't up for Sunday but I was running about 9 seconds faster than you on Saturday. Anyways what place I got isn't the point here.

What i'm getting at is I feel comfy running low 1:40's right now and was comfy running 1:49/1:50 in the rain. I at no point felt reckless or out of controll. Trust me I am the first person to hold back if I'm over my head. Where Thatman went wroing was here

"I found that race to be VERY productive as it took 8 novices and made them wait one more race to graduate. This is competition and now I have a chance a one more expert race then them to get points and beat them by the end of the year."

Like you I don't want to critisize anyones riding ability and am glad you are looking forward to getting points in the expert class. However when you blow a line and a faster rider is behind you it's frustrating for them. They felt they had a safe pass and took it. It is up to the rider to pass safely, but that doesn't mean you put him in the dirt on purpose if you know he's there. But we all have ALOT of work to do before we even place high enough to earn a point. I think it's like the top 10 get them and that's it? Not sure though!

I guess what i'm trying to say is stay humble. I would LOVE to see the lap times for Sunday to see if you were up to speed with the fast riders. Heck when I looked I wouldn't have got first. I think there were a couple faster than me that completed. Funny how that works HUH! The truth always comes out and if I'm wrong I owe you an apology! If i remenber correctly I spoke with you that day as well!

[Mr Sunshine]

If I passed you and crashed then I must have lapped you or you were in the first wave of riders. The lap times aren't up for Sunday but I was running about 9 seconds faster than you on Saturday. Anyways what place I got isn't the point here.

What i'm getting at is I feel comfy running low 1:40's right now and was comfy running 1:49/1:50 in the rain. I at no point felt reckless or out of controll. Trust me I am the first person to hold back if I'm over my head. Where Thatman went wroing was here

"I found that race to be VERY productive as it took 8 novices and made them wait one more race to graduate. This is competition and now I have a chance a one more expert race then them to get points and beat them by the end of the year."

Like you I don't want to critisize anyones riding ability and am glad you are looking forward to getting points in the expert class. However when you blow a line and a faster rider is behind you it's frustrating for them. They felt they had a safe pass and took it. It is up to the rider to pass safely, but that doesn't mean you put him in the dirt on purpose if you know he's there. But we all have ALOT of work to do before we even place high enough to earn a point. I think it's like the top 10 get them and that's it? Not sure though!

I guess what i'm trying to say is stay humble. I would LOVE to see the lap times for Sunday to see if you were up to speed with the fast riders. Heck when I looked I wouldn't have got first. I think there were a couple faster than me that completed. Funny how that works HUH! The truth always comes out and if I'm wrong I owe you an apology! If i remenber correctly I spoke with you that day as well!

On Sunday I was row 3. I know you lapped me as I was going slow for technical reasons (I stated that in a previous post). If I didn't have that problem I would have been running low 1:50 (think 1:52ish) on rains. I know I am not the fastest guy out there. I know that I have lots to learn.

To address the comment about frustrating the faster guys behind me. In that race I was not getting lapped when that rider tried to make the pass. So it was well within the relm of racing of taking a line to block the people behind me from passing me. If I take that blocking line because I screwed up the corner before then so be it.

At the same time I know it is not nice to put someone into the dirt on purpose but if someone is trying to make a pass like that which they can't even hope to stick they shouldn't expect not to go off track because the normal line there pushs you out to almost the very edge of the track. This is why when I setup for a pass it is very rarely to try to out gun the person on the outside of the exit of a turn. Outside into the turn, sure. Inside on the exit is going to be a much easier and safer pass. During the turn, its whatever works based on who you are passing.

I am sorry if you are offended by my comment about the novices getting taken out and now having to wait one more heat to be able to graduate but it is the cold hard fact of racing. You can't collect the "reward" if you don't finish. If you don't finish what was the point of starting?

Please don't take that comment as an uncaring comment that I wish harm on someone. That is the last thing I wish.

See you in a couple of weeks. I'll be fresh back from a couple thousand mile motorcycle trip to No. Cal so I'll be ready to go.

[Wubbie]

No worries! See you all on the track!

[justintime2]

Us B'ham guys are pretty stoked about Spokane as we have heard so much about it and never been there.

I actually didn't put my rains on for Sundays race because both my practice round and race were used for something other than going fast. Sullivan taught me some shift counting and timing techniques that I decided to focus on so putting on the rains just to pull them back off for Spokane didn't seem worth it. I ran DOT race tires for April 1st too so that's where the comparison to the track slickness came from.

Anymore comments from the race officials who actually make the call to red flag?

[gazman]

wuibe, what turn did you go down at? Was it 7? If so, I was one of the guys there helping

[Mr Sunshine]

wuibe, what turn did you go down at? Was it 7? If so, I was one of the guys there helping

Were you the dude who hauled ass out from being in front of the air fence as I came around turn 7 right after another guy went down there? :eek:

Pretty fancy foot work there...noticed you almost went down (yes I was going *that* slow)

[Mr Sunshine]

Us B'ham guys are pretty stoked about Spokane as we have heard so much about it and never been there.

The thing about spokane is that straight will just put you to sleep. if you ever wonder if you are able to top your bike out, that track will allow you to do it and then hold it for awhile.

The other is I hope your steering dampner works well as you'll need it for the straight between 2 and 4 (there's a turn in there but it's much of a turn).

[Wubbie]

I actually might not make Spokane this time around. My bike needs a little work after going down in T7 and my body could use some healing as well. Have some bruised ribs and possibly a fractured arm. The day after the race I could barely walk. Sliding in the pavement wasn't bad it was when I hit the dirt and started to tumble that got the best of me!

As for the red flag I have only seen it used when a rider needs medical attention right away. Like a rider knocked out or just messed himself up. This is why I think it's important to get up after crashing if you think your ok. Medically it's not the right thing to do, but I felt ok, I didn't hit my head and didn't want to lay there is pain so they could pull the medics out. Then you guys would all be on my ass for stoping the race! :D

[Wubbie]

wuibe, what turn did you go down at? Was it 7? If so, I was one of the guys there helping


That's was me in T7. I was the last rider to crash there :rolleyes: ! Actually I wouldn't mind hearing your point of view of what happened. I've been going over it in my head and all I can come up with was my chasis must have been upset after getting a little lose in 6. My tires didn't slip once the whole race untill the 2 corners and well on the second lose turn I was on the pavement. The tires didn't give slowly like rain tires should. I had no time to correct the slide. Heck I didn't even know I was losing the rear untill I was on the pavement.

Let's just say it ruined my whole weekend!

[Hypnotiq]

It appaeared to me that you got on the gas a little too hard. You lost the rear pretty quick and spun the back around pretty fast which tells me you were on it earlier/harder.

I was one of the corner workers in T7.

[Wubbie]

Yeah that was my idea. I think it's my stock suspension sense I weigh 195lbs and it's made for someone 150 or so. I know when I ride my bro's bike I can get on the gas alot earlier in the corner and hold it all the way threw. Oh well lesson learned.

[Mr Sunshine]

This is why I think it's important to get up after crashing if you think your ok. Medically it's not the right thing to do, but I felt ok, I didn't hit my head and didn't want to lay there is pain so they could pull the medics out. Then you guys would all be on my ass for stoping the race! :D

Naw if you need the help you need the help. I have zero problems doing Red Flag practice.